Is virtual analog an advertising ploy?

[vurt]

Dagnamit, I’m dragging it back to the Human League one (last) time:

i dont think martin and phil have spoken since, they wouldn't even appear in that documentary together.

Happily this isn’t the case. I’ve been on a League-fest this past week, and there’s multiple sources of them saying they buried the hatchet long ago. They actually did tour together in (I think) 2009.

So yay.

ah good stuff, im not a huge fan, so never followed it up, just had the synth britannia documentary to go on.
jebus though, is that from before 2009???
i feel old, no way that feels like so long ago.

[BONES]

I never realised there was any animosity there - what's that about? I was thinking of the members of the two bands.

I think Phil stole the Human League name out from under the other two.

It's always simply a matter of being the latest technology.
FM did stuff that subtractive synthesis couldn't.
Digital (sampling) did stuff that FM couldn't.
Each technological advancement got players closer to the sound of real instruments.

The last part is the one that counts. People wanted their synths to sound like real instruments - pianos, drums, guitars - and analogue couldn't do that very well. To this day I cannot fathom why anyone would have chosen a TR909 over a TR707. The 909 sounded like a drum machine, the 707 sounded like drums!

people started to go "hold on, for this particular track I actually PREFER the sound of the CR-78"

I don't think anyone said that until 20 years later, where it was purely about nostalgia.

In other words, we began to notice that things didn't have to pretend to be something else, we could like them for their own sake.

I think that was always the case for a lot of electronic artists. e.g. There is nothing on Speak & Spell that's trying to sound like a real instrument. The problem with drum machines at the time was that they weren't as good as real drums at doing what was required of them. They had pathetic excuses for kick drums that kind of ruined things. We don't notice it now because the technology has advanced to a point where we can fix those problems but back in the 1970s, those tools were largely confined to big studios most of us couldn't afford to use. I had released two albums before I ever used a compressor on anything and the EQ on the mixers I could afford offered +/- 6dB of boost/cut (8dB later in the 80s).

Don't use a DX7 to give you a nice lush analog pad - use an OB-Xa for that.

I used my DX-9 for exactly that. There is no way I could have afforded both a DX and an OB, that was for real, working professionals. An OB-Xa was worth more than any car I owned in the 1970s or '80s. In fact, it was worth as much as a brand new Cortina back in the day. Think about that - how many synths could you afford if they each cost as much as a new Corolla?

Now who among us doesn’t have at least one piano in our pocket?

There are probably some in my Korg ROMpler plugins but I don't own anything that is specifically a piano. I use Olga for piano parts and it doesn't a decent job.

[zerocrossing]

People wanted their synths to sound like real instruments - pianos, drums, guitars…

This was a big part of what I hated about a lot of the 70s and 80s. Every time I heard a “brass stab” from an analog synth, I wanted to cringe. I still do. Some things were still cool… strings, mainly, probably because they were so far off, but any time I hear a brass or woodwind patch, I want to smash something. The synths I thought were cool in the 80s were the Fairlights, Mirages and Synclaviers. They were doing super interesting things with synthesis and turning samples into super interesting things as well. Try and make an analog synth sound like a trumpet? Not interesting. Mangling a trumpet until it sounds like a Tuvan throat singer? Now you’re talking.

Then came guys like Trent Reznor, who seemed much better at coaxing sounds from analog (and digital) synths that were untethered from the past. It also helped that he rarely kept everything as synthesis. I never do music that doesn’t have acoustic or electro-acoustic instruments blended in with the synths, even if they’re from detailed sample libraries.

Now I’m lucky to have all that history to stand on. I can easily blend up a track made from a genuine analog synth, guitar, realistic sample based drums layered with synthetic drum sounds. Pure digital software synths like MPowerSynth, emulations of classics like OB-E, and granular synthesis that wasn’t even a possibility not that long ago.

So, is “virtual analog an advertising ploy?” Only if it sucks. When U-He, Arturia (now), TAL Audio Synapse Audio or GForce say it, I’d say that it’s just descriptive marketing. When Cherry Audio slaps a UI that’s reminiscent of an old analog synth on their latest virtual instrument that has the feature set of a classic but none of the sound or behavior… that’s an advertising ploy. I can’t believe how many people fall for it. I mean, you can make good sounds from it, and I’m sure good music, if your music is good, but if you think their stuff sounds like actual analog synths, you probably need a hearing aid.

[BONES]

I never do music that doesn’t have acoustic or electro-acoustic instruments blended in with the synths, even if they’re from detailed sample libraries.

I use whatever works but I rarely want anything to sound like a real instrument, except for my guitar VSTs. Then again, if I can make a synth sound like a guitar, that's equally cool. But all I've ever wanted to do was sound like a rock band, without actually having to have, or be in, a rock band.

[zerocrossing]

I never do music that doesn’t have acoustic or electro-acoustic instruments blended in with the synths, even if they’re from detailed sample libraries.

I use whatever works but I rarely want anything to sound like a real instrument, except for my guitar VSTs. Then again, if I can make a synth sound like a guitar, that's equally cool. But all I've ever wanted to do was sound like a rock band, without actually having to have, or be in, a rock band.

Shame. There’s really something about an actual guitar that is just perfect. You could emulate it, but you’d miss out on the experience. It’s why I’m a rock god and you’re not. (seriously though, a real guitar is fun, once you get the hang of it.)

[donkey tugger]

I never do music that doesn’t have acoustic or electro-acoustic instruments blended in with the synths, even if they’re from detailed sample libraries.

I use whatever works but I rarely want anything to sound like a real instrument, except for my guitar VSTs. Then again, if I can make a synth sound like a guitar, that's equally cool. But all I've ever wanted to do was sound like a rock band, without actually having to have, or be in, a rock band.

Shame. There’s really something about an actual guitar that is just perfect. You could emulate it, but you’d miss out on the experience. It’s why I’m a rock god and you’re not. (seriously though, a real guitar is fun, once you get the hang of it.)

Some pretty decent cheap ones these days too, for what you'd shell out for a plug-in (Squier 'Bullet' stuff etc). For the type of stuff Bones does most of it would probably be powerchords and chugging, which isn't that hard to get up and running with either.

[BONES]

The most expensive plugin I've ever bought was $99 and I've only ever spent that much once - Phaseplant. I'm thinking you wouldn't get much of a guitar for $99, except maybe from Aldi, but who knows when they'll have them again? But I want to play less, not more. If we could find a keyboard player, I wouldn't play at all (but I'd make that f**ker work his arse off).

Shame. There’s really something about an actual guitar that is just perfect. You could emulate it, but you’d miss out on the experience. It’s why I’m a rock god and you’re not. (seriously though, a real guitar is fun, once you get the hang of it.)

Meh, it's just a guitar. Like everything else, it has a job to do within the arrangement and as long as that job gets done, that's all I care about. BTW, what is this "fun" of which you speak? I'm not interested in fun, I just want to bring on Armageddon. Guitar sounds can be helpful in this endeavour.

[noiseboyuk]

I never realised there was any animosity there - what's that about? I was thinking of the members of the two bands.

I think Phil stole the Human League name out from under the other two.

I've been on a fact-finding memory lane Human League trip over the past few weeks. The split was brokered by their manager Bob Last, and it was he who carved up who had what. He continued to manage both halves of the band afterwards - a really peculiar tale. But nobody "stole" anything, no simple heroes or villians. (I thoroughly reccommend Martyn Ware's podcast Electronically Yours, 100 eps and going strong with some huge guests. League fans jump to Jo Callis and Bob Last's eps).

People wanted their synths to sound like real instruments - pianos, drums, guitars - and analogue couldn't do that very well. To this day I cannot fathom why anyone would have chosen a TR909 over a TR707. The 909 sounded like a drum machine, the 707 sounded like drums!

That's exactly the rigid mindset that the 80s blew away. It was the realisation that beats didn't have to sound like real drums that opened new worlds.

The entire house genre was built on the sound of the 909, just as hip hop (and others) caught the 808 vibe. (INXS threw out their real drummer and immortalised the 707 in Need You Tonight, mind - fabulous). It's a myth that it was decades later when people tuned into this stuff. Speaking of which:

people started to go "hold on, for this particular track I actually PREFER the sound of the CR-78"

I don't think anyone said that until 20 years later, where it was purely about nostalgia.

Nope. In The Air Tonight (1981) had the 78 next to real drums played by Phil Collins himself of course. A conscious choice. Marvin Gaye's Sexual Healing (1982) kept the 808 Marvin had used as a backing when composing cos they couldn't better the vibe. So around about then people were embracing the flaws in the technology and turning them into assets, though the likes of Kraftwerk and Jarre were embracing artificial drums in preference to the real thing way back in the 70s as a conscious artistic choice.

In short - trying to make those early drum machines sound like an actual drummer was horrible. Embracing them for what they were was magic. The patterns themselves changed, they didn't have to be realistic or playable by a real drummer. The kick pattern on Blue Monday would be playable with two kicks but it's not the point - it was easily doable with a DMX and sounded amazing. No-one cared whether or not it was playable.

Don't use a DX7 to give you a nice lush analog pad - use an OB-Xa for that.

I used my DX-9 for exactly that. There is no way I could have afforded both a DX and an OB, that was for real, working professionals. An OB-Xa was worth more than any car I owned in the 1970s or '80s. In fact, it was worth as much as a brand new Cortina back in the day. Think about that - how many synths could you afford if they each cost as much as a new Corolla?

Exactly - you had to make do. Synths were (and are) bloody expensive. But the DX-9 strings sounded nothing like as pleasing as the OB-Xa - but in the spirt of the thread, I've no doubt that despite this the tone suited some songs just right.

[noiseboyuk]

Every time I heard a “brass stab” from an analog synth, I wanted to cringe. I still do. Some things were still cool… strings, mainly, probably because they were so far off, but any time I hear a brass or woodwind patch, I want to smash something.

Van Halen's Jump's synth brass riff is to keyboard players in music shops what Smoke On The Water is to guitarists. You can't imagine it being played by real brass (though now I come to think of it, it would be kinda cool).

Someone like Thomas Dolby was a master at embracing every kind of source. He'd use synthesized brass, sampled brass and real brass all on the same album. He seemed tuned in very early to the uniqueness of each, embracing the idea that pretending something is real when it isn't is the wrong way to go, and just enjoy the unique qualities of each.

If you listen to Prefab Sprout's King Of Rock 'N' Roll (which Dolby produced), the sheer variety of brass sources is a joy. There's one right from the start, and different ones punctuate - the lone classic analog stab at 1'10 is particularly joyous.

[noiseboyuk]

Shame. There’s really something about an actual guitar that is just perfect. You could emulate it, but you’d miss out on the experience. It’s why I’m a rock god and you’re not. (seriously though, a real guitar is fun, once you get the hang of it.)

Meh, it's just a guitar. Like everything else, it has a job to do within the arrangement and as long as that job gets done, that's all I care about. BTW, what is this "fun" of which you speak? I'm not interested in fun, I just want to bring on Armageddon. Guitar sounds can be helpful in this endeavour.

I think the guitar is the hardest instrument to emulate - even more than a violin, which is (usually) monophonic. A player strums (up to) 6 notes at the same time. As he or she moves up and down the fretboard, the interplay between open and fretted strings constantly shifts. Just look at the top two notes - you might play a D on the B string next to the top open E, but on the next figure slide that D up to an F# (but keeping the open E). It's physically impossible to play that on a keyboard. Sure you can emulate nice big block chords and leads are okay, but there's a ton of shapes written on the guitar that could never be written on a keyboard.

[synthlove22]

[BONES]

In The Air Tonight (1981) had the 78 next to real drums played by Phil Collins himself of course.

yes, so not as drums but as a rhythmic filler, like tambourine. But these are nothing more than the exception to prove the rule, given how many instead chose LinnDrums and DMXes. LinnDrum gave bands like Shriekback and Machinations their whole rhythm signature -




I used to love seeing these guys back in the day, they always put on such a good live show. This was the first of several hits they had in Australia and NZ. Last time I saw them, they were opening for Blondie and The Stranglers, probably 10 years ago.

In short - trying to make those early drum machines sound like an actual drummer was horrible. Embracing them for what they were was magic.

No, mostly it was lame. Thinking about it, I have no doubt it's a big part of why I never got into Kraftwerk or JMJ. Of course Wall of Voodoo also used a Rhythm Ace but they had the good grace to use it ironically.

The patterns themselves changed, they didn't have to be realistic or playable by a real drummer.

That's because they don't usually do "drums", as such, they do rhythm kinda stuff. CR78, in particular, was made to sound like the built-in rhythm boxes in a lot of organs. More like a glorified metronome than an alternative to a drummer.

I think the guitar is the hardest instrument to emulate

That's why I use the Ujam stuff, it's mostly sampled riffs played by an actual guitarist. It has an Instrument mode, where you can play it yourself, but it doesn't sound much like a guitar when you use it that way. It can work in a mx, though.

[noiseboyuk]

In The Air Tonight (1981) had the 78 next to real drums played by Phil Collins himself of course.

yes, so not as drums but as a rhythmic filler, like tambourine. But these are nothing more than the exception to prove the rule, given how many instead chose LinnDrums and DMXes.

The Linn was a huge deal and it sounded beefier than the 70s machines. But you’ll notice that by the mid-80s it’s wave peaked (it was ubiquitous then), and then the 808 and 909 began to dominate. By the end of the decade the Linn was almost a museum piece. Really the Linn sounds quite anaemic now compared to those analogue beasts. It was a really interesting curve that went analogue / digital / analogue. The 909 was a failure until House came along. Then every dance record using real drums sounded old fashioned.

You’re right on the 70s machines being organ boxes, that’s exactly what the Korg Mini Pops series were (and others). The CR-78 was - I thiiiink - the first to become an actual machine in its own right. Other bands used it a lot, sometimes with drums and sometimes without - New Musik used it both ways.

[jamcat]

All of those quotes were actually from BONES, not me.

Funny though, you telling BONES of all people what the ‘80s were all about.

And house was the most shit music of all time.

[BONES]

Finally! Jamcat and I agree on something!!

The Linn was a huge deal and it sounded beefier than the 70s machines. But you’ll notice that by the mid-80s it’s wave peaked (it was ubiquitous then), and then the 808 and 909 began to dominate.

Not in any genre of music that I listened to. After the Linn and DMX, people used drums from their workstation synths and samplers, they didn't need a separate drum machine any more. Or they got a real drummer - Wall of Voodoo, The March Violets, Machinations - or the drum machines got so good that you no longer knew it was a drum machine.

By the end of the decade the Linn was almost a museum piece. Really the Linn sounds quite anaemic now compared to those analogue beasts.

Not to my ears. The Linn still sounds like drums, whereas 808/909 require a decent amount of processing to be of any use at all. I'm sure most of the kick sounds we use started out as 909 kicks but they are unrecognisable by the time they are good enough to actually want to use.