Is virtual analog an advertising ploy?

[noiseboyuk]

Honesty now. Hands up - is there anyone out there actually using something like Battery or an old workstation to try and sound like an actual human drummer playing a real drum kit?

I absolutely agree with your general point, but Battery is probably not the best example. With decent samples, and a bit of programming nous (in terms of modulation of pitch and eq, multi out processing etc) you can get decent results. You still need the raw material though - one shots ain't really cutting it no matter what trickery you pull.

Yeah, you could probably get it do something almost passable with an awful lot of effort and time, but I think it would be pretty limited. It could never compare to having multi controllable mic positions with bleed, and you'd need about a thousand samples of different velocities, strike positions etc.

[donkey tugger]

Honesty now. Hands up - is there anyone out there actually using something like Battery or an old workstation to try and sound like an actual human drummer playing a real drum kit?

I absolutely agree with your general point, but Battery is probably not the best example. With decent samples, and a bit of programming nous (in terms of modulation of pitch and eq, multi out processing etc) you can get decent results. You still need the raw material though - one shots ain't really cutting it no matter what trickery you pull.

Yeah, you could probably get it do something almost passable with an awful lot of effort and time, but I think it would be pretty limited. It could never compare to having multi controllable mic positions with bleed, and you'd need about a thousand samples of different velocities, strike positions etc.

I do think we're a little 'spoiled' these days (and don't get me wrong I use AD2, huge Kontakt libraries libraries, SSD5 etc.. ) in that we've lost a lot in terms of techniques in getting the most out of limited stuff. I personally still do sometimes enjoy trying to wring the most out of small drum sample sets in terms of realism, by bonkers amounts of automation etc. Appreciate though, that it's not strictly necessary these days. I'm just an old drummer git who likes doing that stuff.

[noiseboyuk]

I do think we're a little 'spoiled' these days (and don't get me wrong I use AD2, huge Kontakt libraries libraries, SSD5 etc.. ) in that we've lost a lot in terms of techniques in getting the most out of limited stuff. I personally still do sometimes enjoy trying to wring the most out of small drum sample sets in terms of realism, by bonkers amounts of automation etc. Appreciate though, that it's not strictly necessary these days. I'm just an old drummer git who likes doing that stuff.

If you're a) a drummer, b) very patient, c) very skilled and d) like a challenge, I can see how you could do it that way, but ye gads what a lot of work! All power to you though.

I remember the first time I sat in front of EZ Drummer 1. It seems positively crude now, but I started one of their realistically played grooves and played around with the mixer. Instantly it was "oh, this is a drummer playing a drum kit". It didn't feel like I was massaging samples, even though I was. When I turned up the overheads it sounded like turning up the overheads, not just turning up the cymbals. I mean, you can still make it sound bad of course, but that is a phenomenal amount of heavy lifting they've done for you (hey! it's EZ!).

They understand what it takes to make acoustic drums work, both the playing and the sounds. In Superior Drummer 3, snares often have 6 different articulations sampled at huge numbers of velocities. That really captures the subtleties of a real drummer using ghosting, playing the edges, flat against the rim but also striking the skin (love that sound), you name it. A ride might have 9. Then yeah it gets into real luxury with having that bled across 20 mic positions or more in SD3. (Again, the point is not to shill for Toontrack, it's to illustrate how you do acoustic drums and other great options are available).

I think with VI drums they've pretty much nailed it. Other instruments provide greater problems. Guitars - harking back to a discussion a few pages back - are a totally different set of challenges, and short of using pre-made entire phrases there is the fundamental stumbling block of making a keyboard sound like 6 strings. For bar chords, arpeggios, leads etc all is good, but there are some types of playing that are simply impossible. Here's just a 4 second moment from a song of mine. It's so, so easy to play on the guitar - a simple figure on the B, G and D strings that slides up 5 frets, so the B string held on C# moves from below to the open top E to above (oh yeah, to make life more complicated, it's played with a capo on the fifth fret, so all those notes are actually shifted up 5 semitones). An open challenge to anyone who can make anything that sounds remotely like it using a keyboard and a VI without using multiple passes.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fnlldpzq9hjss ... e.mp3?dl=0

That's to illustrate how songwriting depends on the tool in front of you. Coming up with that figure was the easiest thing in the world. You'll write a different song on a guitar to a keyboard. And that itself reflects this broader understanding of music as a whole, how you approach different instruments and get different results, how the DMX lent itself naturally to coming up with Blue Monday in a way a real kit doesn't.

[donkey tugger]

I think with VI drums they've pretty much nailed it. Other instruments provide greater problems. Guitars - harking back to a discussion a few pages back - are a totally different set of challenges, and short of using pre-made entire phrases there is the fundamental stumbling block of making a keyboard sound like 6 strings. For bar chords, arpeggios, leads etc all is good, but there are some types of playing that are simply impossible. Here's just a 4 second moment from a song of mine. It's so, so easy to play on the guitar - a simple figure on the B, G and D strings that slides up 5 frets, so the B string held on C# moves from below to the open top E to above (oh yeah, to make life more complicated, it's played with a capo on the fifth fret, so all those notes are actually shifted up 5 semitones). An open challenge to anyone who can make anything that sounds remotely like it using a keyboard and a VI without using multiple passes.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fnlldpzq9hjss ... e.mp3?dl=0

That's to illustrate how songwriting depends on the tool in front of you. Coming up with that figure was the easiest thing in the world. You'll write a different song on a guitar to a keyboard. And that itself reflects this broader understanding of music as a whole, how you approach different instruments and get different results, how the DMX lent itself naturally to coming up with Blue Monday in a way a real kit doesn't.

Given my main instrument is th'axe, you'll get no argument from me on this one!

[jens]

Honesty now. Hands up - is there anyone out there actually using something like Battery or an old workstation to try and sound like an actual human drummer playing a real drum kit?

I dunno (not that I have it in me to care ever so slightly though)... your point being?

[noiseboyuk]

Honesty now. Hands up - is there anyone out there actually using something like Battery or an old workstation to try and sound like an actual human drummer playing a real drum kit?

I dunno (not that I have it in me to care ever so slightly though)... your point being?

Do you actually read any of these posts, Jens? About a page worth on why dedicated acoustic drum programs are 100x better than beats players or workstations for that job.

[jens]

So? I dare you to get a nice kickdrum out of a cowbell VSTi or a good snare-sound out of a real kick-drum - but if you think that's going to prove anything you are even more deluded than I thought...

It's all 100% pointless - but certainly not because of my lack or reading capability...

[noiseboyuk]

So? I dare you to get a nice kickdrum out of a cowbell VSTi or a good snare-sound out of a real kick-drum - but if you think that's going to prove anything you are even more deluded than I thought...

It's all 100% pointless - but certainly not because of my lack or reading capability...

Look over there! An elephant!

Anything but engage in the conversation or address any of the points made by anyone. Fair enough.

[jens]

I clearly and obviously did - that it still flew past your head way up in the clouds speaks volumes.

[noiseboyuk]

OK, congratulations Jens - you are only my 2nd blocked person in 15 years on KVR! Take a bow.

You are a classic troll who won’t engage in any meaningful conversation, don’t respond to any good humour or grace, and exist to pour condescension on others.

Life is, of course, far far too short.

[jens]

[kritikon]

Honesty now. Hands up - is there anyone out there actually using something like Battery or an old workstation to try and sound like an actual human drummer playing a real drum kit?

Can't be many, but then many of us aren't trying in the least to sound like a real drummer playing real drums. I'd imagine those people are in the minority. Going by the huge amount of 4 on the floor doof doof music still being churned out by the masses...real drumming is not a desired or popular thing. TBH I mostly use either Groove Agent to get your typical dancey beats but in a basic way and don't use a fraction of the gubbins inside it. Otherwise for loops I use Loopmash - and TBH I don't really care if it makes me sound like a real drummer - I want it to sound like me using Loopmash to spice up some loops...it often sounds very unlike a real drummer IMO. But yes, I would happily use anything that gave me drum samples and even a simple drum map with some sort of swing on it. I used a Wavestation and an M1 for years and was quite happy with the drums I got from them. Was easier than Cubase TBH...

[noiseboyuk]

Honesty now. Hands up - is there anyone out there actually using something like Battery or an old workstation to try and sound like an actual human drummer playing a real drum kit?

Can't be many, but then many of us aren't trying in the least to sound like a real drummer playing real drums. I'd imagine those people are in the minority. Going by the huge amount of 4 on the floor doof doof music still being churned out by the masses...real drumming is not a desired or popular thing.

Yeah, I agree it's skewed that way here. All dance music is beats, along with electronica in general and those genres would seem to be the most discussed on KVR (subjectively). But other genres are different. I've noticed how many metal expansions Toontrack do, so it has to be a clue there's a big market for virtual drums there. Rock and Indie / Alternative too. Pop is almost entirely beats, but there's still room for acoustic kits sometimes, especially towards the indie / rock end of that sector. Maybe there's people quietly doing Country here somewhere...

But in general the genres like Metal, Rock and Indie I think are primarily made by actual bands formed of humans playing instruments, less likely to be represented here. And they don't need EZ Drummer cos they have drummers.

I want it to sound like me using Loopmash to spice up some loops... it often sounds very unlike a real drummer IMO

That's one of my main points really. Working with loops (or drum machines) is a totally different thing than trying to craft a real-sounding performance played by a human drummer, and that's all good.

[donkey tugger]

Maybe there's people quietly doing Country here somewhere...

Now and again...

https://donkeyt.bandcamp.com/track/king-of-the-world

But in general the genres like Metal, Rock and Indie I think are primarily made by actual bands formed of humans playing instruments, less likely to be represented here. And they don't need EZ Drummer cos they have drummers.

There are some of us on the more rokk end of things, but as you say we are outnumbered. I think one reason may be that it's easier to get into making dance/electronic stuff than having to learn guitar/drums etc (I'll leave bass out because you could teach it to a clever monkey in a few weeks... ). Always surprises me the number of people who are vehemently opposed to learning guitar in these threads about guitar vsts. Yes, it takes perseverance, but it's not that hard. I can do it even with these chipolata sausage fingers.

[vurt]

some people have soft southern hands, metaphorically speaking.