CLAP... thoughts?

[Echoes in the Attic]

Interesting notes above. As far as I can see Bitwig does not support vst3 note expression, I think that’s just a Cubase thing. Bitwig supports mpe (a few specific modulators per note according to the mpe spec) and CLAP, which is simply polyphonic modulators (e.g. envelope per voice), but not necessarily per note.That’s left to mpe which is per midi channel and only has the few modulators it has like timbre and pressure Etc. Mpe is its own mode and you have to tell Bitwig that it’s an mpe synth. You can have mpe in vst and clap without mpe.

Bitwig definitely supports clap note expressions as a distinct thing from MPE, using the MPE edit gestures in the track. I presume it would also do VST3 note expressions, but I haven't actually used a VST3 plugin which supports those to my knowledge! (Both Surge and the ClapSawDemo support CLAP note expressions)

Really? I use Bitwig and the only per note modulations that I'm aware of is in mpe mode - timbre, pressure, pitch and release. How do you record or edit non-mpe modulations per note? Is this a new functionality they've added recently?

And no as far as I know Bitwig does not support Steinberg Note Expression. I tested Halion nad could not find any way to do any per note expression except for pitch, which just works. You can't even do per note pressure/aftertouch

[EvilDragon]

Bitwig does support VST3 note expressions - pitch, pan and volume do work, without MPE mode enabled. It doesn't seem to support arbitrary note expressions (you can have up to 8 in HALion's mod matrix). That still seems a Cubendo specific thing.

[pdxindy]

You can use as many modulator devices as you want, yes. You cannot draw any more than two automation curves per note. You only have Timber and Aftertouch.

In Bitwig, in addition to Timbre and Pressure, there are Gain and Pan which also have per note curves. So there are 4 in total.

[Echoes in the Attic]

Bitwig does support VST3 note expressions - pitch, pan and volume do work, without MPE mode enabled. It doesn't seem to support arbitrary note expressions (you can have up to 8 in HALion's mod matrix). That still seems a Cubendo specific thing.

Oh ok, but you can’t modulate custom parameters with note expression modulations in halion for example.

[EvilDragon]

Yeah, I did say that, dind't I? This doesn't mean NE aren't supported by Bitwig. The generic ones definitely are.

[teilo]

You can use as many modulator devices as you want, yes. You cannot draw any more than two automation curves per note. You only have Timber and Aftertouch.

In Bitwig, in addition to Timbre and Pressure, there are Gain and Pan which also have per note curves. So there are 4 in total.

There is no way to map per-note automation curves for Gain and Pan in Bitwig. They only control Gain and Pan. Your only parameter mapping options are Velocity (not a curve), Release (not a curve), Timbre, and Pressure. And since poly-Pressure is already a thing in any instrument that supports poly-aftertouch, and is probably already mappable as a mod in the instrument itself, that leaves one curve (Timbre) to map to other things from Bitwig.

Remember, the only way to map note expressions is through the Note Expression modulator. And it only has the four options I noted above.

This is something that Bitwig is going to have to re-think to fully support CLAP automation. Yes, we can get a long way with the existing modulators. But none of those, except for the Note Expression modulator (Timbre and Pressure) let us set precise values over time. Only an automation curve can do that.

[pdxindy]

There is no way to map per-note automation curves for Gain and Pan in Bitwig. They only control Gain and Pan. Your only parameter mapping options are Velocity (not a curve), Release (not a curve), Timbre, and Pressure. And since poly-Pressure is already a thing in any instrument that supports poly-aftertouch, and is probably already mappable as a mod in the instrument itself, that leaves one curve (Timbre) to map to other things from Bitwig.

That is why I was pointing them (Gain and Pan) out. The curve capacity is already there and so it seems like they could more easily be used in different ways or made more flexible.

Currently, Gain and Pan work for Bitwig Instruments. They do not work for the u-he CLAP plugins. It would be handy if they did.

There are also the per note pitch curves. If pitchbend is set to 0, then it has no effect on pitch and could be used for something else. So a new Modulator (Expressions 2) could have Pitch, Gain, Pan.

[pdxindy]

This is something that Bitwig is going to have to re-think to fully support CLAP automation. Yes, we can get a long way with the existing modulators. But none of those, except for the Note Expression modulator (Timbre and Pressure) let us set precise values over time. Only an automation curve can do that.

An envelope modulator is also a precise automation curve over time. It can be applied to one note, or many and can itself be modulated. Steps modulator is a parameter sequencer over time and can also be applied to one or many notes. And so on.

I disagree that Bitwig needs to re-think what is there. A bit of refinement and polish (ahem... MSEG), sure, but Pressure and Timbre plus Poly Modulators can already cover any practical use case.

[teilo]

This is something that Bitwig is going to have to re-think to fully support CLAP automation. Yes, we can get a long way with the existing modulators. But none of those, except for the Note Expression modulator (Timbre and Pressure) let us set precise values over time. Only an automation curve can do that.

An envelope modulator is also a precise automation curve over time. It can be applied to one note, or many and can itself be modulated. Steps modulator is a parameter sequencer over time and can also be applied to one or many notes. And so on.

I disagree that Bitwig needs to re-think what is there. A bit of refinement and polish (ahem... MSEG), sure, but Pressure and Timbre plus Poly Modulators can already cover any practical use case.

If modulators were a replacement for automation, then DAWs would not have automation. Modulators create patterns. They don't give you control. They are not a replacement for automation. If they were, Bitwig would not have channel automation. They would just have their modulator system.

A DAW needs both. Modulators are nice, and super useful, but they are not a replacement for a proper automation curve. And no, a single poly-mod curve is not enough. It cannot cover "any practical use case." It is practical to want to preserve your polyphonic aftertouch, and also precisely modulate two or three parameters on a note using automation curves.

[teilo]

There is no way to map per-note automation curves for Gain and Pan in Bitwig. They only control Gain and Pan. Your only parameter mapping options are Velocity (not a curve), Release (not a curve), Timbre, and Pressure. And since poly-Pressure is already a thing in any instrument that supports poly-aftertouch, and is probably already mappable as a mod in the instrument itself, that leaves one curve (Timbre) to map to other things from Bitwig.

That is why I was pointing them (Gain and Pan) out. The curve capacity is already there and so it seems like they could more easily be used in different ways or made more flexible.

Currently, Gain and Pan work for Bitwig Instruments. They do not work for the u-he CLAP plugins. It would be handy if they did.

There are also the per note pitch curves. If pitchbend is set to 0, then it has no effect on pitch and could be used for something else. So a new Modulator (Expressions 2) could have Pitch, Gain, Pan.

Ok, now you are just being pedantic. I'm talking about mapping automation curves to note and/or voice parameters in a CLAP plugin. I'm not talking about note pitch, nor about pan and gain, none of which are mappable to plugin parameters, because they have a specific definition.

[pdxindy]

A DAW needs both. Modulators are nice, and super useful, but they are not a replacement for a proper automation curve. And no, a single poly-mod curve is not enough. It cannot cover "any practical use case." It is practical to want to preserve your polyphonic aftertouch, and also precisely modulate two or three parameters on a note using automation curves.

I precisely modulate parameters all the time with modulators. And IMO it is a faster workflow than editing curves per note which is really tedious.

Anyway, we can just agree to disagree.

[pdxindy]

Ok, now you are just being pedantic. I'm talking about mapping automation curves to note and/or voice parameters in a CLAP plugin. I'm not talking about note pitch, nor about pan and gain, none of which are mappable to plugin parameters, because they have a specific definition.

I was suggesting that since Gain and Pan already have per note curves, that they could be generalized so the user could select Gain/Pan or an undefined channel and an expression modulator added.

It was a suggestion to give you what you are asking for that seems like a fairly easy path for Bitwig to implement.

[sQeetz]

I precisely modulate parameters all the time with modulators. And IMO it is a faster workflow than editing curves per note which is really tedious.

I'm with you right here. I'm not a keyboard player. I couldn't tell if someone held a chord and held the fingers steady while "aftertouching" one key with the pinky... I... I'm sorry I'm dumb

[baconpaul]

Right so you can’t draw param polymod in the bitwig note view now as far as I know. So your options are: draw the note expressions and envelope/random/lfo modulate arbitrary params. I agree drawing arbitrary modulations would be neat but it doesn’t mean that all modulations are limited only to 7 things which was the point I was trying to helpfully make, and apparently failed

Oh and gain pan timbre pitch and pressure note expressions all should work fine with the surge xt clap. They did when I last tested!

[EvilDragon]

I think what teilo is asking for here is for VWS to support arbitrary note expressions if the plugin registers them (like HALion does with up to 8 arbitrary ones). Which is not an unreasonable request.