Motorola DSP563xx Emulator (BETA) (Access Virus, Nord Lead, Waldorf MW...)

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mothra
KVRist
116 posts since 15 May, 2003 from R'lyeh

Post Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:19 am

SLiC wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:03 am I think you are supposed to own the hardware to use the ROMS, bit of a grey area...
Not very bright to actually point people to copywritten ROMs.. If they don't own a Virus, they need to worry about that on their own. This project is NOT associated with the distribution of Access's IP and that is a very big no no.

Do what you will elsewhere but do NOT post ROMs for the Virus on public forums and say HERE GO GET A FREE VIRUS PLUGIN.

chk071
KVRAF
32539 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:31 am

mothra wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:19 am Do what you will elsewhere but do NOT post ROMs for the Virus on public forums and say HERE GO GET A FREE VIRUS PLUGIN.
To be realistic, that's exactly how it works though. "Hey, here's a free emulator, but we don't tell you where to get this ROM." "Yo guys... can you tell me where to get ROM's?..." "Google "synthesizer ROM archive"." "Aight, cheers." :)

If you want to be legally on the right side, then don't even look at this emulator (as a user), or any other emulator. Sorry to say, but, that's how it is. Regardless of the legal niche they found for the emulator itself.

Not that I think Motorola would approve of this depth of reverse engineering either...

mothra
KVRist
116 posts since 15 May, 2003 from R'lyeh

Post Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:37 am

chk071 wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:31 am To be realistic, that's exactly how it works though. "Hey, here's a free emulator, but we don't tell you where to get this ROM." "Yo guys... can you tell me where to get ROM's?..." "Google "synthesizer ROM archive"." "Aight, cheers." :)

If you want to be legally on the right side, then don't even look at this emulator (as a user), or any other emulator. Sorry to say, but, that's how it is. Regardless of the legal niche they found for the emulator itself.

Not that I think Motorola would approve of this depth of reverse engineering either...
And now we've just created a legal snafu for KvR once Kemper runs across a link here telling everyone where to get the ROMs for a free virus plugin.. He IS aware of the project and the devs have been trying to get him to let them emulate the Ti.. So far he is being VERY lenient about this project, lets not blow it considering the Virus Ti is still for sale and he DOES in fact still own the rights to the Virus A/B/C source code.

Does this mean we can start freely posting Pac-Man and Galaga roms for MAME now and links to out of print copywritten sample cd's too and we shouldn't worry because 'Hey its the internet, that's how it goes'?

SLiC
KVRAF
9151 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:49 am

mothra wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:19 am
SLiC wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:03 am I think you are supposed to own the hardware to use the ROMS, bit of a grey area...
Not very bright to actually point people to copywritten ROMs.. If they don't own a Virus, they need to worry about that on their own. This project is NOT associated with the distribution of Access's IP and that is a very big no no.

Do what you will elsewhere but do NOT post ROMs for the Virus on public forums and say HERE GO GET A FREE VIRUS PLUGIN.
Yeh, its very different to all of the other replies telling people to google it!

I hate to correct you but even if you do own a Virus you are not allowed to copy and use the ROMS so according top your logic this thread should be removed (I do own a Virus, it doesn't mean I can download copies of ROMS and us them in unlicensed emulators). There is currently no legitimate use for this software.

Others can make their own decisions about how they feel about using ROMS...but it is hypocritical to run this thread promoting the emulator that only works with ROM and 'pretend' people ate not downloading them. If any mod wants to delete the link they can, but on that basis they may need to consider the validity of a thread that promotes and encourages downloading of ROMS.
PC + S49, Studio One, BWS, Live (+PUSH2), FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths (Summit, Hydrasynth, Pro 3, P8), A4 + RYTM, MPC Live, Poly Tracker, Eurorack + OXI One, TD27 V Drums, Guitars, Basses, Amps and Pedals (Zoia, Beebo)

rasmusklump
KVRAF
1580 posts since 13 May, 2004 from Germany

Post Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:51 am

It is indeed different...

JamminFool
KVRAF
1675 posts since 16 Apr, 2004 from between my ears

Post Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:55 am

that link was already posted on page 3 of this very thread. so it's a little late to act self-righteous now.

SLiC
KVRAF
9151 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Sun Aug 14, 2022 8:07 am

I deleted the link to save the thread from being de-railed, but there is no high-ground here, just semantics and some very illogical justifications.
PC + S49, Studio One, BWS, Live (+PUSH2), FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths (Summit, Hydrasynth, Pro 3, P8), A4 + RYTM, MPC Live, Poly Tracker, Eurorack + OXI One, TD27 V Drums, Guitars, Basses, Amps and Pedals (Zoia, Beebo)

BenfordLaw
KVRist
201 posts since 12 Nov, 2020

Post Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:12 am

SLiC wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 8:07 am ... but there is no high-ground here, just semantics and some very illogical justifications.
I think you've just summed up the entire KVR forums! :D

BenfordLaw
KVRist
201 posts since 12 Nov, 2020

Post Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:14 am

I presume Kemper (is he the owner or the maker of the Virus synths?) can license the ROMs and sell them on his website - a damn sight easier than selling hardware, if he prices them right. Or join with the DSP56300 emulator team and share (in whatever way both parties agree) in the profits by selling the emulator with the Virus ROMs.

SLiC
KVRAF
9151 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:31 am

BenfordLaw wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:14 am I presume Kemper (is he the owner or the maker of the Virus synths?) can license the ROMs and sell them on his website - a damn sight easier than selling hardware, if he prices them right. Or join with the DSP56300 emulator team and share (in whatever way both parties agree) in the profits by selling the emulator with the Virus ROMs.
Yes, you would think there was easy money in this for the ROM providers, but then they may get caught up in the 'support' issues and they also may just hope this is a small number of underground/techy users that wont affect hardware sales (which it may do if legitimised) - there is very little difference between the emulated Virus C and a Ti...they sound the same, its all the same core code.

I participate on the official Virus forums and there has been no activity at all from Access for many years (and a lot of anger from users due to unfixed bugs on hardware they still sell!) so I realy dont think they are very interested either way.

Of course its not just Access/Kempler - the list of ROMS that could be supported covers Nord, Novation, Waldorf etc.
PC + S49, Studio One, BWS, Live (+PUSH2), FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths (Summit, Hydrasynth, Pro 3, P8), A4 + RYTM, MPC Live, Poly Tracker, Eurorack + OXI One, TD27 V Drums, Guitars, Basses, Amps and Pedals (Zoia, Beebo)

chk071
KVRAF
32539 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:35 am

BenfordLaw wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:14 am I presume Kemper (is he the owner or the maker of the Virus synths?) can license the ROMs and sell them on his website - a damn sight easier than selling hardware, if he prices them right. Or join with the DSP56300 emulator team and share (in whatever way both parties agree) in the profits by selling the emulator with the Virus ROMs.
I don't think there's anything for him to gain there. As long as the Virus sells well, and he doesn't even have to provide a lot of support, what's the point in selling the ROM for some more or less stable third party software, which most haven't even heard of? (especially as he has to give support for that)

Even if he did the Virus as a VSTi, I don't think there's much to gain for him. He has a much higher margin with the hardware.

SLiC
KVRAF
9151 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:41 am

He has resisted the temptation for the much requested Kempler Profiler in software despite the fact that it would be better on modern computer processors and probably sell like hot cakes....
PC + S49, Studio One, BWS, Live (+PUSH2), FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths (Summit, Hydrasynth, Pro 3, P8), A4 + RYTM, MPC Live, Poly Tracker, Eurorack + OXI One, TD27 V Drums, Guitars, Basses, Amps and Pedals (Zoia, Beebo)

PAK
KVRian
1260 posts since 20 Feb, 2003

Post Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:51 pm

SLiC wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:03 amI hate to correct you but even if you do own a Virus you are not allowed to copy and use the ROMS
Nonsense. They are freely available on the Access website, in MIDI format, for a reason. Needless to say overly-broad generalizations like this aren't correct. You DO have some rights in these areas if you paid for a license (which you did if you own the relevant Virus hardware / software). License terms must also be shown to be reasonable when tested under law. IE Just writing terms won't always make it so..

However, if you don't own a license, there's no caveats - theoretical or otherwise. You aren't allowed to use the roms. People then might consider asking Access to provide a sanctioned way or authorize a true native port. Your usage, in this scenario, is no different from using any other warez..

BTW: There is a LOT of precedent in this area due to game emulations. It doesn't stop with the software either. Projects, such as MiSTer, suggest it's only a matter of time before we start seeing synth hardware itself cloned via FPGA technology..

GreyLion
KVRAF
3139 posts since 21 May, 2004 from Deep in the Heart of Texas

Post Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:15 pm

SLiC wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:41 am He has resisted the temptation for the much requested Kempler Profiler in software despite the fact that it would be better on modern computer processors and probably sell like hot cakes....
Can't blame him for that. The software would be extremely popular, would be instantly pirated, and would cannibalize hardware sales.

It might make sense to do a software version if hardware sales ever drop low enough. But that's not happening anytime soon.

OTOH, IK's new ToneX is making noises like it'll do the same job as the Profiler. So maybe Kemper could get pushed into the pool anyhow.

SLiC
KVRAF
9151 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:22 pm

PAK wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:51 pm
SLiC wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:03 amI hate to correct you but even if you do own a Virus you are not allowed to copy and use the ROMS
Nonsense. They are freely available on the Access website, in MIDI format, for a reason. Needless to say overly-broad generalizations like this aren't correct. You DO have some rights in these areas if you paid for a license (which you did if you own the relevant Virus hardware / software). License terms must also be shown to be reasonable when tested under law. IE Just writing terms won't always make it so..

However, if you don't own a license, there's no caveats - theoretical or otherwise. You aren't allowed to use the roms. People then might consider asking Access to provide a sanctioned way or authorize a true native port. Your usage, in this scenario, is no different from using any other warez..

BTW: There is a LOT of precedent in this area due to game emulations. It doesn't stop with the software either. Projects, such as MiSTer, suggest it's only a matter of time before we start seeing synth hardware itself cloned via FPGA technology..
You bought hardware, you did not pay for a licence to use their ROM any way you chose in any device you choose. Chip software emulation didn’t exist when they were posted, if you wanted another Virus they would rather you bought the hardware…you are just assuming it’s OK (unless your an IP lawyer that specialises in this area?)

When I bought my Powercore Virus I didn’t assume I could just copy it and use it on multiple machines, you had to buy more licences (and even pay extra for more voices)

Has anyone asked Access/Kempler and been told it’s OK, or is everyone just assuming it’s OK? I would love to see a response.
PC + S49, Studio One, BWS, Live (+PUSH2), FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths (Summit, Hydrasynth, Pro 3, P8), A4 + RYTM, MPC Live, Poly Tracker, Eurorack + OXI One, TD27 V Drums, Guitars, Basses, Amps and Pedals (Zoia, Beebo)

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