KVR Audio

Pawelm · Post by **Pawelm** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:29 am

Hi guys im currently using Cubase sx 2 and was previously a user of logic platinum 5.5.

Just wanna see whos using what and hhow logic 5.5 for the pc is running with the lastest plugs in before I make a move. My reasons for moving back is the automation on logic and also the es1 and es2.

I know alot of people still use logic for pc and are very happy but i would just like to know the situation with new plug in's etc....

I don't want a mac and I don't want this post to turn into a PC vs MAC thread lol that would be deadly but any feedback would be great.

Cheers guys

steffensen · Post by **steffensen** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:21 am

hey, i'm using logic 5.5.1 without any hassles at all.
i know battery 2 multiversion doesnt work because its VST2.0, but who the hell cares anyway, when u got EXS24 or DR008 working just fiiine.

(even stylus RMX works btw..)

but of there would be any probs with plugins in the future, i guess i use a vst wrapper of some kind.
doubt i'll ever have to tho.

Pawelm · Post by **Pawelm** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:26 am

Cool, ok thanks for the feedback, been such along time since i have used logic, do es-1 and es-2 still outshine other vsti's?? or have the likes of albino 2 and vanguard etc..caught up with them???

steffensen · Post by **steffensen** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:47 am

haha.. no way mate.

logic still kicks the lamas ass!

Pawelm · Post by **Pawelm** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:50 am

for real????

steffensen · Post by **steffensen** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:04 pm

yepp! för real.

Sascha Franck · Post by **Sascha Franck** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:27 pm

Personally, I own both Logic 5.5.1 and SX 3.

Anyways, I won't go into the details for now, just so much: I have been an oldtime Cubase user (started with V1 on an Atari ST), so I am still somewhat familiar with the ways Cubase is handling things. Switched to Logic around 3.0-3.5 because a) it was running more stable and b) it was the program offering better ergonomics for me.

This last point hasn't changed so far, not even with the latest SX version.

I think it's pretty much clear that on PCs Cubase is offering a lot more from a technical point of view. Such as freeze, offline bounce, warp audio and the likes. Great if you need them.
Still, there's a LOT of things where Logic is still doing a better job - the funny thing being that this might even apply to some things where, if you look for popular opinions, SX should just kick Logic's butt, namely things such as VST support.
Example: In SX you just can't setup a "catched" channel strip on your arrange page which would bring you straight to the VSTi channel settings. It's impossible.

Some further (more or less random) things annoying the s**t out of me when working with SX:
- Linked editors. No way to do that on a per editor base in SX, it's a global setting.
- "Float" windows. No way to drag an editor out of your main program window in SX. Vital stuff when working with, say, two monitors of different sizes.
- No velocity tool in Key Edit (Logic's Matrix). What a shame! Has got to be my most used tool ever.
- Tool handling in general. In Logic, I never switch tools in my arrange. I have the plain pointer on my left button, scissor on the right. Just enough for everything I do.
- Automation. Logic's approach is half-assed, but SX's approach then might only be "quarter-assed". Let alone the horrible bugs in "touch fader" mode (which simply isn't working at all, uberlame!), I often use "MIDI automation" rather than trackbased automation. Example: I may record a VSTi filter sweep on a MIDI track, just by simply fiddling with the appropriate knob on my VSTi. I may then cut, copy, mute or stretch that automation data. All of those are impossible in SX - and I mean completely impossible! Just try to automate an FX send and copy that data around - it's possible but it's a royal PITA.
- Screen layout and general UI issues. SX is the master of wasting screen estate, Logic however is as effcient as things could get.
- Quantizing. SX just sucks at that. There's NO WAY to get any information about how much you quantized things. Sure, you can open an editor and get a rough idea, but that's a timeconsuming and lame approach.
- Extracting drum tracks to MIDI. Just came to my mind. I use that VERY often in Logic to have, say, a kick trigger some sampler track. No way to do that in SX, apart from using 3rd party plugins, which is WAY more timeconsuming (and not working even halfway as good either).

As far as plugin compatibility goes: Yes, there's some plugins not working at all, then there's MIDI driven audio plugins which are only half-implemented (you need to instanciate them as instruments, if possible, then feed the source into them as a sidechain), and then there's things such as many NI plugins which will often produce hanging notes and the likes. Still, most plugins are working fine, and in case they aren't, they might work fine when being used through EnergyXT (which seems to be a good workaround for greater plugin compatibility in Logic).

OK, Steinberg allready started to implement some things oldtime Logic users would've missed before (they do for instance have "relative snap" now, which IMO is a godsend), but ergonomically SX still has a LONG way to go, if you ask me.
I have to use Cubase for a whole number of reasons, but I can't see myself using it any day soon for my own stuff. Let alone that many of Logic's internal plugins are simply brilliant and that what you get with SX is utter shite.

Pawelm · Post by **Pawelm** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:47 pm

Hey mate thank you so much the was a really informative read over lunch

Thanks alot, now come the decision,

i think im fancying logic again lol

kritikon · Post by **kritikon** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 6:01 am

Just try to automate an FX send and copy that data around - it's possible but it's a royal PITA

Huh? It's horses for courses I suppose, but I think the automation in SX2 is pretty good (as compared to VST5.1 which I was using not so long ago). I can see how if you have several automation parameters it could get a little messy, but you can still group them. I use FX automation quite a lot...alot more so than things like quantizing, and I find it a breeze.
Drag your square around which FX automation you want, copy, set your cursor and paste...and if you then want to delete the paramters you copied from, it's a simple group delete.

Just goes to show everyone works in different ways. The automation, ease of editing it and the ease of moving it around is one of my favourite things with SX. I certainly have a few pet hates, but the automation was a real bonus for me. The fact that I can have all my main FX automations on screen and visible with my audio channels rather than having to edit the old automation parts is so much more intuitive to me. I was pretty happy with VST5.1 for most things, but the automation in SX2 was worth the upgrade alone (for me).

I have to agree with you on the ergonomics thing though...SX is pure clutter. And too many useful things lost in transition from VST5->SX. Seems there's no way to use L and R mouse buttons to move the L and R locators ( It annoys the tits off me how long it takes to adjust loop points), and no cross-hairs cursor, which is a small but invaluable thing.

And extracting audio->midi...can't for the life of me think why Steinberg lost that facility (unless I've overlooked it in the manual...which is possible).

I suppose the main thing with Logic for PC though, is that it's extremely unlikely it'll ever be updated, so any shortcomings within Cubase will probably be addressed at some point or other - and the frequency of Cubase upgrades seems to be getting more and more often. And PC Logic doesn't have the full PDC. I used to get by without full PDC, but nowadays I find it extremely handy. Once you've got used to it, do you really want to go back to all the workarounds you had to use to compensate for it's lack?

Oh ....just thought of another silly thing with Cubase. It's taken me a few months, but I finally got around to some serious editing of audio clips within parts. Tried to chop off starts and ends and move them around, and got into all kinds of strife. Suddenly dawned on me that I was double-clicking into the sample editor rather than the audio part editor. So after an hour wasted manual-surfing and interruption to any flow I had going, I found out I need to click on Events To Part, or somesuch thing, for every part I want to edit with any flexibility. Otherwise I chop a clip, the part is shortened, so when I want to copy it, it copies to the wrong place....which is a bizarre setup IMO. It can be cured relatively easily, but I have to specify to Cubase to edit in a logical manner, otherwise it automatically edits in a useless manner!

Anyway - I still find SX pretty good. At the moment I'm doing mostly dub and stuff...so automation (especially of FX) is a major part of everything I do - and seriously, I like SX automation. Must be something wrong with me?

ahja · Post by **ahja** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 6:11 am

Sascha Franck wrote: Example: In SX you just can't setup a "catched" channel strip on your arrange page which would bring you straight to the VSTi channel settings. It's impossible.

False. Look about half way down... Virus Powercore parameters on stickly a midi track. They are now linked in SX3.

ahja · Post by **ahja** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 6:16 am

Screen layout and general UI issues. SX is the master of wasting screen estate, Logic however is as effcient as things could get.

Learn how to use Windows Layouts / Workspaces effectively. Good use of the inspector also enables you to to work strickly from the project window. Great use of space, if you ask me.

- "Float" windows. No way to drag an editor out of your main program window in SX. Vital stuff when working with, say, two monitors of different sizes.

You are kidding right?

- No velocity tool in Key Edit (Logic's Matrix). What a shame! Has got to be my most used tool ever.

Whatta mean? Use the pencil tool, or the other tools? Wanna enter information manually? Open the info bar and type your values. How much easier do you want it?

steffensen · Post by **steffensen** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:02 am

Sascha Franck wrote: I think it's pretty much clear that on PCs Cubase is offering a lot more from a technical point of view. Such as freeze, offline bounce, warp audio and the likes. Great if you need them.
Still, there's a LOT of things where Logic is still doing a better job.

- No velocity tool in Key Edit (Logic's Matrix). What a shame! Has got to be my most used tool ever.

- Screen layout and general UI issues. SX is the master of wasting screen estate, Logic however is as effcient as things could get.
- Quantizing. SX just sucks at that. There's NO WAY to get any information about how much you quantized things. Sure, you can open an editor and get a rough idea, but that's a timeconsuming and lame approach.
- Extracting drum tracks to MIDI. Just came to my mind. I use that VERY often in Logic to have, say, a kick trigger some sampler track. No way to do that in SX, apart from using 3rd party plugins, which is WAY more timeconsuming (and not working even halfway as good either).

Let alone that many of Logic's internal plugins are simply brilliant and that what you get with SX is utter shite.

this is so true mate.

nocompromise · Post by **nocompromise** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 10:25 am

just out of interest, whats the position on Logic 5.51. Emapple no longer support it right.

Can it still be bought? Are they giving it away free? If not, WHY NOT?

Theres also no doubt a crack for it too. Does emapples position on it and the fact they dumped the PC justify the use of the cracked version?

Whats the moral position on this when the developers let us down?

TechNoiZ · Post by **TechNoiZ** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 11:26 am

Keep Logic for all the above reasons and buy EnergyXT to run all the new plugs.

Sascha Franck · Post by **Sascha Franck** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 11:33 am

ahja wrote: Learn how to use Windows Layouts / Workspaces effectively. Good use of the inspector also enables you to to work strickly from the project window. Great use of space, if you ask me.

I quite know about the different ways to setup the inspector. There's no channel strip displaying the audio channel settings for a VSTi, period.

- "Float" windows. No way to drag an editor out of your main program window in SX. Vital stuff when working with, say, two monitors of different sizes.

You are kidding right?

Why should I be kidding?
In Logic, I have my arrange on one screen and a floating Matrix on the other. Brilliant. Again impossible in SX, no need to even discuss about it.

Whatta mean? Use the pencil tool, or the other tools? Wanna enter information manually? Open the info bar and type your values. How much easier do you want it?

I want a velocity tool, again no need to argue about it as you don't seem to know what I'm talking about.
Ihave it on my right mouse button permanently (which is another great thing, I just don't need to switch tools all the freaking time) and drag up/down to change velocities. The pencil tool doesn't do that, no other tool does it either.

Cubase Sx vs Logic Audio???