KVR Audio

Charlie Firpo · Post by **Charlie Firpo** » Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:31 am

Question: It's 2022. Is there really not a solution yet for sample exact midi out when using softsynths with for example a virtual cable like loopmidi.(im talking about software only inside the box, no external midi instruments/hardware) I wish one could get the accuracy like with vst. I would gladly offer some latency in return for perfect playback. I know midi is serial and as soon you put out some chords there will be delays. But one can dream right?

BertKoor · Post by **BertKoor** » Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:45 pm

Answer: although we live in 2022, the average software developer is only doing it for 5 years. This is true today, and was also true 50 years ago. So the chance is 50/50 100% that any random software you use has some design flaw, cut a corner, made a compromise somewhere.

Like you already said, midi is not sample-exact to begin with. A standard 3-byte midi message takes about 1ms to be transferred over the 32.000 baud serial interface of midi over 5-pin DIN.

It needs to be determined whether your specific problem is with loopmidi or the stand-alone softsynth. Either could be the culprit. It's possible the softsynth (which one are you talking about?) uses rather large buffers and only processes incoming midi messages at the boundaries of these buffers. It's also possible the midi loopback driver processes data only once every 20 ms or so.

Once you have ruled out one or the other, you can file a bug/enhancement report to the responsible developer.

Charlie Firpo · Post by **Charlie Firpo** » Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:52 pm

It's been like that for every standalone softsynth i tried it with. Recently Icarus Tone2 standalone. I've googled lots about this: Most of the times it's about hardware jitter. But since i only work within the box with loopmidi, i wish there were some solution. Like "Ah, but have you tried the Virtual midi cable Super Deluxe by The Audio Tennesseys that corrects the serial midi protocol and outputs sample exact playback". The input side of things works great. It only gets messy as soon lots of notes gets involved. You can hear that some notes "stutter" or gets delayed in busy sections. I get the best results at 64 buffer size.

polac · Post by **polac** » Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:35 am

Best workaround is to set a small buffersize in the audio settings to prevent jitter. Some (lightweight) hosts have midi-in jitter compensation for vsts included.

Charlie Firpo · Post by **Charlie Firpo** » Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:52 am

Hi Polac! (The Polac of the Buzz fame? Nice to meet you!) Yes, that's been my observation too. The lower buffer size = Less jitter. It works good on general composing. But as soon as you include lots of midi information, tight notes, polyphony etc, you start to hear the drift. I don't mind latency cause you could always compensate that by doing track delays. But inconsistent jitter is another thing.

BertKoor · Post by **BertKoor** » Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:07 am

Why stand-alone and not as a VSTi in a proper DAW? If that works (and chances are high) ...

Charlie Firpo · Post by **Charlie Firpo** » Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:14 am

Good question: I'm using a midi only sequencer (not a daw) with a good workflow. But since it seems that Vst's is the only solution for sample exact playback i guess i'll have to go that way. Still, i was hoping for some kind of solution since it's all within the box. (No external hardware)

BertKoor · Post by **BertKoor** » Sun Sep 25, 2022 1:47 pm

Well, you observe the buffer size plays a role. You set that in the stand-alone synth, right? Then I think it's due to the synth.

Or your virtual midi cable is even slower than hardware midi. We used to have MidiYoke which was pretty good. But win32 only I'm afraid.

Can you test alternatives?

syntonica · Post by **syntonica** » Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:20 am

The minute hardware (and hardware protocols) are involved, there's going to be jitter. Even the Atari ST, with MIDI built in from the get-go, suffered from a small amount of jitter.

If everything is running in a single DAW, with plugins, there should be NO jitter, just possibly some delay if not compensated for. If you are sending data from one program to a another program, you will probably see a small amount of jitter. I think there's no escaping it, even if you are running a real-rime OS, which Win, Mac and Linux are definitely not.

bitwise · Post by **bitwise** » Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:28 am

If your synths are available as "jack clients" try jackaudio

Tj Shredder · Post by **Tj Shredder** » Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:04 pm

What is the sequencer you are using? How do you measure the latency? By ear? How much jitter do you get? Until now I can’t give any hint for the lack of general information. The culprit could well be the sequencer…

Charlie Firpo · Post by **Charlie Firpo** » Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:40 pm

Thank you guys for all the suggestions. But after some more searching and reading through the net it seems like a daw with plugins is the best way to go for jitterless playback. I never really noticed the jitter before when playing stuff live on the keyboard. But if you do tight fast sequences with chords entered into a pianoroll and want an exact output = Vst inside daw.

gentleclockdivider · Post by **gentleclockdivider** » Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:28 pm

Charlie Firpo wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:31 am Question: It's 2022. Is there really not a solution yet for sample exact midi out when using softsynths with for example a virtual cable like loopmidi.(im talking about software only inside the box, no external midi instruments/hardware) I wish one could get the accuracy like with vst. I would gladly offer some latency in return for perfect playback. I know midi is serial and as soon you put out some chords there will be delays. But one can dream right?

When I sequence vst’s from my cirklon ( hardware sequencer) the result is jitter free , depending from host to host .
Midi over usb from cirklon to host.
Usb polling time on win is around 1 ms( milliseconds), on mac it’s much better ( microseconds ) .
I also did some test with loopback midi from architect—->renoise etc .
Renoise was not good but the latest update fixed it .
Loomer architect=great
Reaper =great
Studio one 4.5= bloody awfull , supposedly fixed in 5.0
My advice is to use a host instead of standalone vst’s

gentleclockdivider · Post by **gentleclockdivider** » Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:29 pm

Charlie Firpo wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:40 pm Thank you guys for all the suggestions. But after some more searching and reading through the net it seems like a daw with plugins is the best way to go for jitterless playback. I never really noticed the jitter before when playing stuff live on the keyboard. But if you do tight fast sequences with chords entered into a pianoroll and want an exact output = Vst inside daw.

Exactly !
If you’re interested in the renoise thread
https://forum.renoise.com/t/unstable-ti ... ents/65270

experimental.crow · Post by **experimental.crow** » Fri Sep 30, 2022 12:50 am

has anyone used copperLAN ?..

Jitter with standalone softsynths