The Piano Conspiracy (Piano Impulse Responses?)

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Yadrichik_Chaya
KVRist
Topic Starter
277 posts since 5 Oct, 2021

Post Sat Oct 01, 2022 5:47 am

There is nothing stranger in the world of music then the lack of Piano Impulse Responses…Google yourself: Piano Impulse Responses or ”Piano Impulse Responses” (with quotation marks)…

Some threads on music forums from 2006, 2010, 2015 and various essays from different universities…

Am I missing something? Is it maybe impossible to create Piano Impulse Responses? If that is the case, please enlighten me please as to why. :help:

I've used very ”synthy” sounding cello/violin patches on the Boss SY-1000 but as soon as these go through some violin/cello IR, these very synthy sounds transform into sounding like a real violin/cello… :violin:

So I'd love to see Piano Impulse Responses transforming a 90s house music piano into a Bösendorfer… :hihi:

BUT there are no Piano Impulse Responses to download anywhere to see if this is even possible…

Is there any reason for this?

I'm looking at you Modartt (creators of Pianoteq) while wearing my tin foil hat… :party:
I play World music too, I'm just not sure which world it's from... :lol:

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SeBaer
KVRist
329 posts since 3 Oct, 2019

Post Sat Oct 01, 2022 6:06 am

Yadrichik_Chaya wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 5:47 am So I'd love to see Piano Impulse Responses transforming a 90s house music piano into a Bösendorfer… :hihi:
How would that work? I can't imagine how an impulse response would transform an arbitrary sound into something as specific as a grand piano. I would assume the end result would as much depend on the source sound as on the IR.

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Yadrichik_Chaya
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Topic Starter
277 posts since 5 Oct, 2021

Post Sat Oct 01, 2022 6:15 am

SeBaer wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 6:06 am
Yadrichik_Chaya wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 5:47 am So I'd love to see Piano Impulse Responses transforming a 90s house music piano into a Bösendorfer… :hihi:
How would that work? I can't imagine how an impulse response would transform an arbitrary sound into something as specific as a grand piano. I would assume the end result would as much depend on the source sound as on the IR.
Well with IRs you can transform an electric guitar into an acoustic (and it sounds good and realistic), as I already mentioned running synth patches through an Cello/Violin IR makes it sound like a real violin. Surely a simple ”piano sound” would benefit greatly from going through a ”Grand Piano Impulse Response”… :D

That is what I'm really after.
Not a specific Grand Piano brand, like Bösendorfer, but just the characteristics of a Grand Piano. Strange that it is impossible to even find a single IR…
I play World music too, I'm just not sure which world it's from... :lol:

Spitfire31
KVRAF
3208 posts since 18 May, 2003 from Sweden

Post Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:11 am

Have you tried PSP Audioware's PianoVerb/PianoVerb 2?
www.pspaudioware.com/products/psp-pianoverb2

PianoVerb is freeware and the further developed PianoVerb 2 is $69. You can have a demo for 30 days. Well worth a listen!

PSP Audioware uses iLok. I've never had any problems with it.
If it were easy, anybody could do it!

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Tj Shredder
KVRAF
7993 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Post Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:35 am

Pianoverb is just the piano space with its strings resonances. If you want a piano string as IR, just take any sample and use it as IR… A stroke of a piano string with its hammer is exactly that, the response of the string to the impulse of the hammer…

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SeBaer
KVRist
329 posts since 3 Oct, 2019

Post Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:23 pm

Tj Shredder wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:35 am Pianoverb is just the piano space with its strings resonances. If you want a piano string as IR, just take any sample and use it as IR… A stroke of a piano string with its hammer is exactly that, the response of the string to the impulse of the hammer…
But I assume, if you excite the IR with something else, it gets weird.

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Tj Shredder
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7993 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Post Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:55 pm

SeBaer wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:23 pm
Tj Shredder wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:35 am Pianoverb is just the piano space with its strings resonances. If you want a piano string as IR, just take any sample and use it as IR… A stroke of a piano string with its hammer is exactly that, the response of the string to the impulse of the hammer…
But I assume, if you excite the IR with something else, it gets weird.
Not weird, it gets exciting, something else than a hammer is exciting the string...

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Michael L
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4201 posts since 25 Jan, 2014 from The End of The World as We Knowit

Post Sat Oct 01, 2022 5:20 pm

Tj Shredder wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:55 pm
SeBaer wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:23 pm
Tj Shredder wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:35 am Pianoverb is just the piano space with its strings resonances. If you want a piano string as IR, just take any sample and use it as IR…
But I assume, if you excite the IR with something else, it gets weird.
Not weird, it gets exciting, something else than a hammer is exciting the string...
Yes

+1 for PianoVerb - it has a useful set of parameters. Use it before a Concert Hall IR.

Kontakt includes a diverse set of cool "pianolin" IRs, and some "Old Piano FX" IRs that will turn a Bosendorfer into a house piano, so just load a pianobook Kontakt instrument (https://www.pianobook.co.uk/instrument/pianos/) with those IRs.

OR... use weird pianobook samples as IRs. Load a couple of slightly different ones as a stereo pair (or two pairs) into your converb over say, an acoustic guitar or harp or dulcimer . . .
d o n 't
w a n t
m o r e

Nickeldome
KVRer
1 posts since 10 Jul, 2014

Post Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:13 am

Yadrichik_Chaya wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 5:47 am So I'd love to see Piano Impulse Responses transforming a 90s house music piano into a Bösendorfer… :hihi:

BUT there are no Piano Impulse Responses to download anywhere to see if this is even possible…

Is there any reason for this?

I'm looking at you Modartt (creators of Pianoteq) while wearing my tin foil hat… :party:
The reason for this is that it's not possible. The nature of these sounds are very different.
Impulse responses can mimic the space an instrument is in. It can not model the instrument itself.

CinningBao
KVRAF
2273 posts since 15 Apr, 2004 from Capital City, UK

Post Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:15 am

Great first post Nickeldome :)

Unless the OP is trolling, they perhaps don't understand what IRs can and can't do. And also, perhaps, how the different components of real instrument interact which result in the complex results we enjoy from competent musicians.

Put simply, OP, the sound of the piano is a number of things: the metal the strings are made of, the tension of the strings, the shape and material of the frame they are held in, the shape of the box containing that construction, the type of wood used for that box, the space the piano is played in, the position of the listener.. and probably more.. and all that is before the player even hits a note.

IRs are kind of filters.. through time. They capture a characteristic of 'a thing' under certain conditions, at one moment in time, so it can be recreated. EQ shapes and reverbs are typical IR material. Amplifier cabinets are also used by virtual guitar stacks to make your guitar sound more convincing. But the IR is only one part of the whole chain; it's there to make the sound sound like it's going through a thing which has a real shape (the cabinet).

Back to your Piano IR request. The frame holding the strings is the digital guitar signal, and the box containing this frame is the cabinet. If you can get the sound of the strings being struck without the cabinet, and then put that through an IR of a piano frame, you might get something which sounds oookkkaaayyy,.. and even saying it sounds interesting as an experiment, but I wouldn't expect to get anything actually useful from it.

Because it's interesting to experiment, I made a couple of crude IRs from pianoteq, all the notes pressed down at the same time, a short and long IRs, then played some crappy old piano sample from an ancient soundfont through it, and it did not make the soundfont sound magically better.

In a nutshell, I'm not sure your original premise is correct, and you won't actually be able to up-cycle crappy sampled pianos to a fancy-shmancy concert piano sound. Pianos are more complex than a set of samples and faders to turn up or down hammer sound or room reverb.

And what are you expecting from Modartt? If they use IRs in any part of the engine prior to the reverb layer, they are likely calculated 'as needed', rather than a secret magic list of IRs which they just plop in the end of the chain to make the pianos sound different. They have probably one of the most advanced multi-layer physical models on the market, with a zillion parameters of which we only see a small percentage, so I highly doubt they are 'cheating' with a secret list of concert piano cabinet IRs.

I hope that makes sense.

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