Production techniques/workflow(?) for late-90s progressive trance

[TW1306]

I know this sounds 'whiny' and all but I'm really at a loss, nothing I create is on the same level as the music I'm inspired by - even trying to put together something as simple as a kick+bass loop gets frustrating because I can never get it sounding even passable.

I've listened to a lot of trance in my time, and hearing tracks like this <> - produced in 1998, almost 25 years ago! - blows my mind because they're so detailed, with complex synths and FX that I can't even think up, let alone create. I have no idea how I'm supposed to reach that level even though I've been working at it for years.

People have suggested using analogue gear, which would probably help somewhat, but the issue is more than that, it's about my own (apparent lack of) skill, and I don't know how to rectify that.

[TW1306]

A better example of what I mean - 3:43 in this track
The only elements playing are a kick drum and bassline (with one simple fx line), but they still sound good - I've tried to make a combination like that many times but can't get anything sounding as good.

[askoan]

I remember some 1996-2000 trance compilations that had for sure an awesome sound.
Did you already saw some Dash Glitch videos ? He focuses a lot on sound design and quality (well, like a lot of nowadays videos, but as it’s psytrance, it may be convenient for your style), i just watch his processes for pure earing pleasure.
For example


He has some very precise demonstrations, like kick+bassline in a full progression (more detailed than this one)

[andymcbain]

Don't buy analogue gear, it's not needed and it will just muddy the waters for you.

You say you're struggling with the kick and bass - are you trying to synthesize these elements from scratch? Are you trying to enhance the sounds with additional processing? Can you perhaps post an example of what you've managed to create so far?

[Aiynzahev]

Yeah analog gear can be hit and miss for stuff like this, a lot of the time people were using romplers and simpler VA synths. As is always the case with requests like this, it helps infinitely to post examples of where you're at so we can think about what might need to change.

[TW1306]

You say you're struggling with the kick and bass - are you trying to synthesize these elements from scratch? Are you trying to enhance the sounds with additional processing?

A mix of both self-made sounds and sometimes using samples. As for processing, I've added things like EQ and FX but not compression, saturation for example - I have no idea how to apply those, let alone when.

it helps infinitely to post examples of where you're at so we can think about what might need to change.

Here's a couple of things I've done recently; the basslines in #1 and #2 are made from scratch, #3 is an attempt at recreating the bassline used by Matt Darey in a lot of his work around 1999, and #4 uses a sample sound (with effects added by me)
https://soundcloud.com/spatial-sound/lo ... al_sharing

I know that trance had a very wide range of sounds especially back then, but I think it's obvious that I lack something that gives my work an authentic sound - it's frustrating to not know how to get that sound.

[Aiynzahev]

You say you're struggling with the kick and bass - are you trying to synthesize these elements from scratch? Are you trying to enhance the sounds with additional processing?

A mix of both self-made sounds and sometimes using samples. As for processing, I've added things like EQ and FX but not compression, saturation for example - I have no idea how to apply those, let alone when.

it helps infinitely to post examples of where you're at so we can think about what might need to change.

Here's a couple of things I've done recently; the basslines in #1 and #2 are made from scratch, #3 is an attempt at recreating the bassline used by Matt Darey in a lot of his work around 1999, and #4 uses a sample sound (with effects added by me)
https://soundcloud.com/spatial-sound/lo ... al_sharing

I know that trance had a very wide range of sounds especially back then, but I think it's obvious that I lack something that gives my work an authentic sound - it's frustrating to not know how to get that sound.

Is it just me or do those examples not sound great? I mean they are not exactly like something from 99 but that's mostly due to smaller details. I think you've got the basics down really well.

The thing to think about with those older tracks is less bandwidth. Compared to what we work with today, you need to simulate less top end, more distortion, less stereo width. Not by a huge amount but I think if you make each sound more "compact" in that sense you'll get close to what you're looking for. Delay and reverbs just weren't as wide for whatever reason on those older tracks and sat far back in the mix.

I don't think you need to worry about compression at this stage. What synths are you working with?

[chk071]

You say you're struggling with the kick and bass - are you trying to synthesize these elements from scratch? Are you trying to enhance the sounds with additional processing?

A mix of both self-made sounds and sometimes using samples. As for processing, I've added things like EQ and FX but not compression, saturation for example - I have no idea how to apply those, let alone when.

it helps infinitely to post examples of where you're at so we can think about what might need to change.

Here's a couple of things I've done recently; the basslines in #1 and #2 are made from scratch, #3 is an attempt at recreating the bassline used by Matt Darey in a lot of his work around 1999, and #4 uses a sample sound (with effects added by me)
https://soundcloud.com/spatial-sound/lo ... al_sharing

I know that trance had a very wide range of sounds especially back then, but I think it's obvious that I lack something that gives my work an authentic sound - it's frustrating to not know how to get that sound.

Is it just me or do those examples not sound great? I mean they are not exactly like something from 99 but that's mostly due to smaller details. I think you've got the basics down really well.

Yep. I'd be happy with that. If anything, I'd dial the bass drum a bit back. Sounds a bit too boomy for old school.

And, I also agree with less stereo width.

[Aiynzahev]

Play around with this for example: https://www.caelumaudio.com/CaelumAudio ... eCassette2
It's free, adds some really good distortion and rolls off a lot of the high end. It's a tricky game because you don't want to make your stuff sound really dull, but in the right places in the right amounts, you can get there.

Also I want to add that the most important aspect of older trance is the composition and you've got that aesthetic I think.

[TW1306]

What synths are you working with?

Mostly Thor (included in Reason), Synth1, JP6K, SH-101/303/JV1080 (from Roland Cloud) - I've tried to seek out contemporary drum samples as best I can also.

I mean they are not exactly like something from 99 but that's mostly due to smaller details. I think you've got the basics down really well.

Also I want to add that the most important aspect of older trance is the composition and you've got that aesthetic I think.

I appreciate the compliments, I'd like to think I can get the composition down at least but it's getting those small details that's the issue; compared to the complexity of tracks like the one I linked at the start of this topic I'm still basically banging rocks together there are synths and FX that I'd never be able to think up, let alone create, at the level I'm at currently.

[DNnX]

I know that trance had a very wide range of sounds especially back then, but I think it's obvious that I lack something that gives my work an authentic sound - it's frustrating to not know how to get that sound.

Welcome to the oldskool producing hell
I've been researching how to reproduce 90's electric music for more than 10 years.
For trance, I do earlier (1990-1993) ones more but I sometime do late 90's one too.

Few advices for producing late 90s :

Producing,
Buy analog mixers (16+ recommended), multi output interface to work with (8out * 2), FX rack unit to send. Cheap units incl. Behringer are OK.
1 synth = 1 mono output. Send to chorus, flanger or phaser from mixer to widen the mono sound. Use stereo output only when you really need.
Try to get the biggest sound with them. You don't have the compressor? No problem, you have Gain knob in the mixer to lessen the dynamic range (with distorting ). You will feel very limited while producing and mixing, but that IS the key.

If you need the aggressive filter sound (something like acid, especially with clipping or distortion), you are better to have at least 1 analog synth. OSC sync is better in analog too.

Mastering,
Find and read the manual of M5000 (1994-1995) TC Electronic Finalizer (their next Mastering Box). Check what components and parameters are included in them. These are well-used digital mastering unit in late 90's.
Anyway, if you did it right, you already have good 90s feeling before the mastering.

I can't write all (it will be too long here) but I hope there are something useful for you!

Ferry Corsten production in 1999

[TW1306]

As sort of a follow-up, I tried creating another simple bass earlier and it still doesn't seem to 'work' - I also tried boosting the low end and adding a separate sine osc but I just cannot seem to make basslines that sound good but also authentic.

https://soundcloud.com/spatial-sound/loop-835

[thecontrolcentre]

A better example of what I mean - 3:43 in this track
The only elements playing are a kick drum and bassline (with one simple fx line), but they still sound good - I've tried to make a combination like that many times but can't get anything sounding as good.

Listening to your Soundcloud compared to the above track the main difference is the top end. Your tracks are very bright by comparison. Don't forget that in the late 90's most people were still mainly analog ... your stuff is clean and digital.

[TW1306]

Listening to your Soundcloud compared to the above track the main difference is the top end. Your tracks are very bright by comparison. Don't forget that in the late 90's most people were still mainly analog ... your stuff is clean and digital.

You're right, I've tried adding a slight low-pass before, or putting iZotope Vinyl over the top of everything, and while that's definitely something I'm trying to figure out how best to implement I personally think the bassline thing is a more prominent problem.
There's plenty of tracks from the time which have sections where only the kick drum and bassline are playing, and they sound perfectly adequate on their own without any other elements; at the moment I'm struggling to get that simple thing down.

[Aiynzahev]

Ok you are right that you're not quite there but you're on the right track. I'd say what you're talking about these with the kick/bass is getting getting precisely the right source sound, and then carefully using EQ. I know it sounds like I didn't really say anything there, but it's down to intuition, trial and error.

For some practical suggestions, for the baseline, try using a synth that can do reset oscillator phase, if you're not already. That will give you the exactly same sound every note, or you could just sample the bass note and repeat it, sometimes you can catch a few variations and get the best one (because the phase is always moving so sometimes you get a nice click at the beginning of the note)

Do you have the Roland cloud XV5080? I'd definitely look into that for basslines.

Another thing you mentioned, I'd say to avoid putting any eq/filtering solution over the entire mix, just focus on getting the sound you want on each element.

For bass EQ I can recommend a really nice free EQ RRS EQ560 https://redrocksound.pro/products/eq560/
I find the way it just makes It really easy to dial in the right sound compared to your standard DAW EQ.

Are you using Reason btw?