Wusikstation / Linplug SaxLab Song

[ccollinsmith]

This is the first song I've posted here. It's really just me having fun with some really cool new toys. I waited for SaxLab for months, and it did not disappoint.

For lack of a better category, I classified this as Electronic Jazz, since each of the saxes gets to take kind of a "free-jazz" solo in the middle (except that the saxes are synthesized and the solos are sequenced, not improvised!). I think the solo that sounds most authentic is the alto solo, which is the last of the three.

Anyway, I did this pretty fast. I mean, SaxLab has only been out for a couple of days. And I had to mix a lot in headphones.

The song is at...

http://teleri.wusik.com/

It's the first song of the two ("New Toys 007"). Please let me know how it sounds. Thanks.

[experimental.crow]

heh ... heh ...
got a bit of fz in ya ?...

i like this quite a bit ...

however ...
the panning sweeps are a tad overdone ...
the percussion elements need to be brought forward ...
the mix seems a bit flat ...

[ccollinsmith]

heh ... heh ...
got a bit of fz in ya ?...

i like this quite a bit ...

I hadn't given the fz connection much thought, but wow, I'm honored that you thought of it. Yeah, I spent a lot of my youth listening to Zappa. And I went to North Texas, where he grabbed up some of his horn players. He definitely had an impact on my sensibility. What's funny is that I was thinking more of Ornette Coleman in writing those sax solos (esp. the alto solo), but I wrote them using a 12-tone matrix, and fz definitely did cross my mind a time or two as I was doing it.

however ...
the panning sweeps are a tad overdone ...
the percussion elements need to be brought forward ...
the mix seems a bit flat ...

Thanks for the comments. I'm a complete novice at mixing. I just worked my butt off at getting a little bit of sound separation via the EQ. I didn't throw in any compression. I don't trust myself with that yet. At the moment, I'm concentrating on learning how to use the EQ.

BTW, which panning sweeps in particular would you like me to settle down? There's a pan early on with the High Pass arpeggiation. The saxes pan off each other a little when the tenor is introduced. The tenor and alto solos pan. And there's some panning in the Wusikstation wave sequence that plays under the sax solos. If you can pinpoint the biggest offenders for me, that would be very helpful.

I appreciate all the mixing advice I can get.

Thanks for the comments!

[experimental.crow]

re: panning sweeps ...

i think just losing the panning on the sax solos would improve the feel overall ...
simply place them a bit right or left of center ... each solo could be in a different place ...
a touch of reverb on the sax would also help ...

bringing up the percussion elements will also help ...

the track has more of a 'rock' feel than a jazz feel , but the solos are definately blowin' free ...
reminds a bit of 'orange county lumber truck ' ... hence the fz reference ...

once again , i found this quite enjoyable ...

[ccollinsmith]

Okay, I did a bit more mixing. And I uploaded the new mix to

http://teleri.wusik.com

It's now called "New Toys, 007?" Just think of it as Miss Moneypenny's query after James completes a session with Q.

re: panning sweeps ...

i think just losing the panning on the sax solos would improve the feel overall ...
simply place them a bit right or left of center ... each solo could be in a different place ...

Got rid of the panning sweeps on the saxes.

a touch of reverb on the sax would also help ...

Didn't find a reverb sound I liked. And I did like the edge on the saxes. So I left that alone.

bringing up the percussion elements will also help ...

Did that too. There's this nice little free plug called x-cita. I just hope it didn't bring the percussion up TOO far.

Thanks again for the feedback. Let me know what you think of this mix.

[Greenplums]

Fine by me but although the Sax Sound is spot on pitch they sound to me so midi. In other words they do not sound as though they are being played. One of the reasons I think is the lack of pitch bend I just hope I can explain that.

I have purchased SaxLab and just cannot get it to sound good because of my not being able to transmit any meaningful pitchbend or vibrato from either my midi guitar or keyboards.

I can do this fine on midi using an XG Sax Synth and playing it via a midi guitar. To illustrate that try a listen to Sax Under a Full Moon track 3 I think
http://www.soundclick.com/gwcooper

Enjoyed your track but I would love someone to demonstrate to me SaxLab really being put through it's paces. Maybe it's me but I just cannot get a good enough sound out of it to use

HELP

Gerry

[experimental.crow]

Okay, I did a bit more mixing. And I uploaded the new mix to

http://teleri.wusik.com

It's now called "New Toys, 007?" Just think of it as Miss Moneypenny's query after James completes a session with Q.

re: panning sweeps ...

i think just losing the panning on the sax solos would improve the feel overall ...
simply place them a bit right or left of center ... each solo could be in a different place ...

Got rid of the panning sweeps on the saxes.

a touch of reverb on the sax would also help ...

Didn't find a reverb sound I liked. And I did like the edge on the saxes. So I left that alone.

bringing up the percussion elements will also help ...

Did that too. There's this nice little free plug called x-cita. I just hope it didn't bring the percussion up TOO far.

Thanks again for the feedback. Let me know what you think of this mix.

new mix is more better more ...
percs not up too far ...
main wusik patch w/ portamento may be too far up in relation to the saxes ... you could play w/ that a bit ...

i really like the change in dynamic from the main theme to the solos ... that works well ...

[M'Snah]

...

[ccollinsmith]

I have purchased SaxLab and just cannot get it to sound good because of my not being able to transmit any meaningful pitchbend or vibrato from either my midi guitar or keyboards.

I can do this fine on midi using an XG Sax Synth and playing it via a midi guitar. To illustrate that try a listen to Sax Under a Full Moon track 3 I think
http://www.soundclick.com/gwcooper

Thanks for the link to your track. I listened to it. Nice lush tenor sound, very emotive... esp. at the beginning, when it sounds spot-on like a tenor being played by a sax player. (I'm an old sax player, so I know how sax thinks, and you've nailed it in the early going).

Later, it sounds to me like the mind behind the sax-playing belongs to a guitar-player. But even then, there are still places that sound decidedly like the way a sax-player thinks... usually the places where you use shorter notes.

Concerning your pitch-bends: they sound to me more like guitar pitch-bends on sax than like sax pitch-bends.

Without some serious processing, sax is not usually that smooth or fluid with its bends, and it's straight-up hard work to get a microtone double bend on sax. Guitar, of course, can bend (or double/triple/quadruple... bend) microtones with great fluidity. You're bending notes more fluidly and using smaller microtone intervals than I've usually heard on sax, but which I've heard a lot on guitar.

Fine by me but although the Sax Sound is spot on pitch they sound to me so midi. In other words they do not sound as though they are being played. One of the reasons I think is the lack of pitch bend I just hope I can explain that.

In terms of sounding played... I totally agree on the tenor. That's the most "mechanical sounding" of the solos. I tried to put the bari a little out-of-time, the way so many bari solos are actually played. But not being a bari player, I don't really know how well I pulled it off.

The alto, though, I do think sounds played... but played by Eric Dolphy, which may not be what you have in mind for "sax." In fact, given the ballad-style sax on your track, I think we do have different saxophone styles running in our heads.

The other day, I mentioned "normal"'s Zappa comment to my friend Fletch Wiley and said something about there being some "outside" sax solos on the track("like Ornette Coleman?" Fletch asked). Somehow, Eric Dolphy never came up in the discussion.

Anyway, he finally listened to my song yesterday and without knowing that I was actually THINKING "Dolphy" when I sequenced the alto solo, Fletch said it "sounds more like Eric Dolphy" (than Frank Zappa or Ornette Coleman) to him.

Fletch has played jazz trumpet/flute/fluegelhorn with the likes of Alex Acuna and Abraham Laboriel. (Plus he's Tess Wiley's dad). He knows his jazz. And it totally blew me away that he "got" the Dolphy connection from listening to the tune and not by any comments from me. But hey, I guess that's why he gets paid the big bucks as a producer and I don't, eh?

I will ask him, though, if it sounds like "real" Eric Dolphy or like "sequenced" Eric Dolphy.

By the way, if you'd like to hear some great live jazz fusion, check out the ORNAMENT OF THE UNIVERSE album

http://www.outboundmusic.com/FletchWiley/

It features Fletch, Abe Laboriel, Bill Maxwell, Alex Acuna, and Loston Harris. Very good stuff.

Enjoyed your track but I would love someone to demonstrate to me SaxLab really being put through it's paces. Maybe it's me but I just cannot get a good enough sound out of it to use

Thanks for the comments.

By the way, have you heard the SaxLab demos that were posted on the Linplug forum? That's what convinced me to buy the instrument. The guy does a very good job of creating a convincing solo sax. I downloaded the songs (there were two, and last I looked the Linplug site didn't have any demos linked to on the page). I can look them up for you if you'd like.

[ccollinsmith]

new mix is more better more ...

Thanks for pushing me! And for helping me pinpoint what needed to be done.

main wusik patch w/ portamento may be too far up in relation to the saxes ... you could play w/ that a bit ...

Good idea. I was having some trouble with that section, so I'll play around with that.

Now the question is whether I'll ever find those same settings on my Oxygen demo again (didn't save the settings as a preset). I know how the mixing will sound... just not sure how the polish will sound on a new mix.

[annode]

Hi ccollinsmith.
Seeing that your post was about,and showcaseing the saxlab...i`d like to throw my 2 cents in about playing a vitual sax solo a that sounds more convincing.

I believe it`s all about,like was said earlier,thinking/playing as a sax player will.

Grabbing some of those techniques will help to pull it off.
The way it`s velocity is set and used is most important as well I think.If saxlab has velocity settings that mimic soft/hard-sweet/harse,then I believe it can be accomplished.
Jumping octaves helps also.
Triadic note sequences with one of the 3 notes at the top or bottom of the song key is another way.

Here`s a solo I did on the yamamha CS6R module synth.
It`s a first take improv played on keys...but I think some of the playing shows off the sax techniques I was able to do.
http://home.comcast.net/~newdabranck/mu ... Sweden.mp3