Cubase Sx vs Logic Audio???

[mauseoleum]

these host vs host episodes are a lot like max vs maya vs xsi *wars*. and then somebody will drop in with zbrush and c4d or even blender.

i guess somebody feels the *mission* to improve sx

my 2c for steinberg: give me solid metal dongle like aist products have it !

[Sascha Franck]

In some aspects Sascha's criticizm on Cubase has a point, but I absolutely don't understand why every Logic user glorifies the velocity tool. I know how logic works with midi but I prefer any time the way Cubase does it. You can draw velocity, or you select a note and drag with the mouse up or down the value in the infoline. Is it so hard the get using it?

No, it's not getting hard to get used to it, but neither of the methods you describe will change velocities of multiple selected notes in relation to each other - which is clearly inferior and, depending on what the music you work on is like, could be pretty much a PITA.

Another point and I know that some die hard logic user will disagree with me: the way how logic shows you your midirecordings in the arrange view is the worst I can imagine.

Personally, I couldn't care less. As long a something is shown (to indicate it's not only an empty part) I'm just happy with it. I don't have any problems with either SX's or Logic's way.

There is also nothing wrong with the fact how cubase handels midi and associated vst instruments. Just split your workflow into logical parts. When I do midi, I do midi. When I mix then I mix. I open the mixer and do the work on the respectiv audio channel of the vst.

Especially since we got virtual instruments, both things are going hand in hand for me.
I often use automation in, shall we say a "creative" way, and regarding that anything helping me to get there is just welcomed.

For example, the way how logic works with folder thracks is IMO far more complicated then in cubase, especially the process to take some tracks out of the folder.

I have to agree on this. Folders are pretty much convoluted in Logic and SX's way of handling them is way better.

Snapping options in logic are way behind of cubase,

It's only now with SX 3 that this is so. Before there was no relative snap, which is the most musical way of snapping.

you cannot apply a fade in/out to multiple tracks,

What sort of tracks? And why shouldn't you be able to?

not to mention that it is now only mac, and not to even mention that you have to pay 200 dolars to ask their support a question!!!

Indeed, better don't mention it, as it's still driving me nuts.

but a velocity tool is the last needed option in cubase. You have more than three ways to change it.

Yeah, but none of the three methods will change velocities in a relative way.

[ahja]

Actually... If you select the notes you'd like to change the velocity of in the edit bar of the key editor, they WILL stay relative. Can even scroll with your mouse whell in that value box.

[ericj23]

just tried this

i selcted a bunch of notes in a chord

changed the velocity in the inspector on the data line- and all the velocities changed relative to each other in sx 3

why is this difficult ?

what do i miss from logic - linked inspectors - i do like having the track i was working on appear selected when i open the mixer

some of the fx - thats it

[mojkarma]

you cannot apply a fade in/out to multiple tracks,


What sort of tracks? And why shouldn't you be able to?

I mean audiotracks. Your question is unnecesarry. Why should you be able to move multiple tracks? When I split multiple tracks, move them or whatever, I prefer to add a small fade in to be sure that pops or clicks will not appear.

It's only now with SX 3 that this is so. Before there was no relative snap, which is the most musical way of snapping.

I give you a tipical recording situation. When I record an audio track (instrument or vocal), I start a few bars before the recording start point so that the player/singer can "warm up". I hit record immediately before. Lately I want to shorten the start of the clip/range to a bar. In that way I can easely copy the region to a later point (at the beginning of a bar). Logic doesn't allow this because it snapes relative. I have to cut on the beginning of the bar but I prefer the cubase way, just like you prefer to have a velocity tool.

Regarding midi track and vst. Nothing goes hand in hand for me. At the beginning I'm focused on how to make the right recording which includes editing of mididata. Later I'm focused on getting the right sound (compression, eq, automation, etc.). I separate these two processes.

[Sascha Franck]

I mean audiotracks. Your question is unnecesarry.

No, it's by NO MEANS unnecessary, because I thought you were on some strange trip. You can OF COURSE fade in multiple tracks simultaneously in Logic. What should be the problem with it?

I prefer to add a small fade in to be sure that pops or clicks will not appear.

As said, no problem at all. Possible since the very first Logic version I used (3.0).

Lately I want to shorten the start of the clip/range to a bar. In that way I can easely copy the region to a later point (at the beginning of a bar). Logic doesn't allow this because it snapes relative.

Why would I even need to shorten it straight to a bar?
Especially in your singer's example, VERY often there's gonna be some breath or whatever before the actual vocals start. And I defenitely want to keep that.
Why would I trim it to a bar in the first place?
Ah yes, I know - because earlier versions of Cubase didn't allow any relative movements, that's why all parts had to start at a full bar.
If I had to chose between absolute and relative snap, I would take relative ANY day.
But as said before, as of SX 3 it can't be any better as you got both ways now. It was WAY worse in any other version though, just because relative snapping was impossible. Btw, one of THE key features that made me switch to Logic back then!

changed the velocity in the inspector on the data line- and all the velocities changed relative to each other in sx 3

why is this difficult ?

Not difficult. But working with the velocity tool in Logic is still faster. Selecting notes and changing their velocities is almost ONE instant move.

Actually... If you select the notes you'd like to change the velocity of in the edit bar of the key editor, they WILL stay relative. Can even scroll with your mouse whell in that value box.

Good to know, thanks.
Still, if you could only see me dealing with velocities in Logic...

[cold c]

Are you still using SX2? SX3 now has the audio channel settings for the VSTi in the inspector.

SX 3 and I know (now, see below) - quite a spacewaste though.
Apart from that, let's have a look at the new "E" button down on the right.
It'll take you to the selected VSTi track's audio channel settings. Fine.
Now, click on another track and go back there - you'll be seeing the MIDI channel settings again, instead of the audio channel settings, which is why I clicked the new "E" rather than anything else. Pretty lame and absolutely unlogical and inconsistent. This new "E" button should ALLWAYS bring up the audio channel settings, no matter how often I switch between tracks.

That's not the issue you referred to in your previous post. However, this is a bug, you can switch off this behaviour from preferences >> editing >> mixer selection follows project >> unchecked.

In the event of having two desktops with different resolutions, any window with always on top enabled can be dragged out of the main window on to a different desktop.

I know. But Cubase's editors don't offer any allways on top settings.

Then stretch the main window to both desktops and move the editor to the other window, you may lose some screen space on one screen or another.

If you have the same res on both monitors, the window can be maximised to both screens.

Which will raise the amount of screen estate used up.
Allways on top windows have smaller title bars, a "normalized" project window will result in an extra title bar as well and so on.
Let alone the fact that the "main window resizing" approach will indeed only work fine assuming you got two identical monitors. Fine for my main setup, lame with my laptop plus extra monitor setup. Not an issue at all with Logic as you can open ANY window as allways on top.

You can still resize the main window with two different sized desktops. You seem to want something like the old dreamweaver workspace. Most applications moved away from that and started doing tabbed views. The always on top setting for the editors has been requested before.

Your "different screen resolutions" issue would apply to most windows applictions, you should put in a feature request for AOT for the editor windows for your workaround.

Apart from that, in Logic I can decide on a per editor (or window) base whether I'd like to have them linked or not.

I think it's been requested before, currently very difficult to pick out feature requests at forum.cubase.net as all the bug reports, feature requests, questions are all together in the same forum.

Just try to automate an FX send and copy that data around - it's possible but it's a royal PITA

Works fine here, use the range selection tool.

Well, some things to consider:
- This requires to select a range.
- This still won't allow to tweak automation data in a way MIDI parts can be tweaked.
Here's two screenshots:


This is a delay send automation (for the record, I can switch of "node view", so I won't accidentally alter any nodes.
What you may allready notice is that it looks like a "part" rather than a bunch of events. And as such it can be treated. I only need to grab that part to copy and move it around. No need to select any ranges.

Here's another screenshot:


Now the delay send part is copied. OK, no biggie, even with SX's automation. But, as you may see, it's timestretched. Try that with SX's automation. In Logic, I just grab the right corner, hold down CTRL and shorten the part = timestretching.
KICKASS for creative use of automation, completely impossible in SX - unless you know of an easy way to route MIDI CC information (which could be treated like MIDI parts if recorded or drawn in) to control a channel's FX sends. I couldn't find any way to do so.

You previously said "Just try to automate an FX send and copy that data around - it's possible but it's a royal PITA" and now you say it's because you want a part window around the data and to be able to timestretch the automation?

So copying automation is possible (various methods), tweaking/changing automation is possible (various methods), timestretching automation is not possible go and put in a feature request, or alternatively routing CC data to an VST parameter not possible- put in a feature request on whichever you feel is necessary.

Quantizing. SX just sucks at that.

Discussed this in a previous topic, please go back and read it again...

No need to do so. The lack of any visual info about quantize values is a huge drawback in SX. Yes, you can use a quantizer plugin, but that's quite another story as it affects the complete track rather than an individual part (which is what I'm usually using quantization for).

If you want "visual feedback" while incrementally quantizing (on any part or selection of notes) use the quantize setup with auto preview enabled.

Please check the manual. Detect hitpoints (or insert them manually because the detection is not good) then use the hitpoint tool with the alt key, then create groove quantize from hitpoints, then make sure you save the groove quantize because it can be overwritten (and they claim that is not a bug). Then enable this groove quantize in the key editor and all then add MIDI notes as desired.

You seem to misunderstand this one. What I want is to create MIDI notes out of hitpoints. I don't want to apply a quantize template out of them. As far as I'm informed, in earlier version of Cubase (must've been in 5.x) you could extract MIDI notes out of groove/quantization templates. I fail to find any method to do that with SX.
Why do I want this? To extract a MIDI track of, say, a kickdrum track to trigger some samples with it.
I do that on almost any drumtakes in Logic, the snare and kick tracks allways get extracted as MIDI tracks so I can use additional samples to have more variety of sound choices.

I'd be very happy if you'd know about a way to do this in SX (something that doesn't require using something like DrumTrigger and rerecord everything all the way through the tune, without even being that exact either).

What's the difference between MIDI notes (all the same note) and a groove?

The only reason the old Cubase extracted the MIDI notes to a part file was so they can be organised in folders, exchanged etc. (which the current SX method can not do BTW) but they both store the same MIDI note data.

I already described a way to do what you want, the only difference is you have to put the MIDI notes in yourself or quantize an existing series of MIDI notes.

As well as this, most third party beatslicing tools will also allow you to extract MIDI notes from a wav file (probably with better accuracy).

Even without the volume slider shown, the FX sends and inserts take up more space than my channel strip in Logic.

Yes, that's not surprising, it would be nice if each element in a section in the inspector (like insert effects) could be sized the same way the track name can be resized on a MIDI track, then they could automatically take up less room, but this would be a feature request.

i guess somebody feels the *mission* to improve sx

Yes, unfortunately I don't have the source code.

[Sascha Franck]

That's not the issue you referred to in your previous post. However, this is a bug, you can switch off this behaviour from preferences >> editing >> mixer selection follows project >> unchecked.

I know, but I'd prefer it to follow (properly of course).

Your "different screen resolutions" issue would apply to most windows applictions, you should put in a feature request for AOT for the editor windows for your workaround.

I allready did, on the german Cubase list (which is quite frequently read by some Steinbergers).

You previously said "Just try to automate an FX send and copy that data around - it's possible but it's a royal PITA" and now you say it's because you want a part window around the data and to be able to timestretch the automation?

i think I allready said something about the inability to timestretch automation data in Cubase. Just have a look at my very first post in this thread.

So copying automation is possible (various methods), tweaking/changing automation is possible (various methods), timestretching automation is not possible go and put in a feature request, or alternatively routing CC data to an VST parameter not possible- put in a feature request on whichever you feel is necessary.

I allready requested all of those.

If you want "visual feedback" while incrementally quantizing (on any part or selection of notes) use the quantize setup with auto preview enabled.

Admittedly, nothing I've thought of so far, but it won't give me control about allready quantized parts.
You know, in Logic I select a part and its q-settings are automatically shown in the socalled "sequence parameter box", open for further actions, allways perfectly showing me what was quantized how much.

What's the difference between MIDI notes (all the same note) and a groove?

The only reason the old Cubase extracted the MIDI notes to a part file was so they can be organised in folders, exchanged etc. (which the current SX method can not do BTW) but they both store the same MIDI note data.

NOOOOO!
One of the side effects was that you could use those notes to trigger a sampler!

I already described a way to do what you want, the only difference is you have to put the MIDI notes in yourself or quantize an existing series of MIDI notes.

Did you EVER try to enter ALL the required notes of a 5 minute kickdrum track by yourself?

As well as this, most third party beatslicing tools will also allow you to extract MIDI notes from a wav file (probably with better accuracy).

Not true. Hitpoints do a REALLY good job on this, I allready "hit pointed" a kick drum track perfectly.
I also made a q-template out of it, the dynamics are maintained as well - for whatever reason, you can even generate markers out of hitpoints, the only thing you CAN'T do is to transform them into notes and then have those notes trigger my sampler.
FWIW, I also own ReCycle and it won't do the job at all as MIDI export is limited to 127 notes max., due to the specialized job ReCycle is supposed to do (extracting slices and MIDI grooves out of rather short loops, rather than complete tracks).

See, "under the hood" all I'm asking for is allready there. Hitpoints actually DO exist as MIDI/position data (otherwise they couldn't be used as q-templates or to generate markers) and even the dynamics are maintained (which is proven by the fact, that whenever you use a hitpoint generated q-template, the quantized notes will adopt velocities of the template as well).

All it'd take is some rather simple function such as "extract hitpoint MIDI data to selected track" or so.

Yes, that's not surprising, it would be nice if each element in a section in the inspector (like insert effects) could be sized the same way the track name can be resized on a MIDI track, then they could automatically take up less room, but this would be a feature request.

That'd be nice indeed.

Yes, unfortunately I don't have the source code.

Unfortunately...

[cold c]

I allready did, on the german Cubase list (which is quite frequently read by some Steinbergers).

I don't know which list you are refering to, all feature requests should be on the official forum.

You previously said "Just try to automate an FX send and copy that data around - it's possible but it's a royal PITA" and now you say it's because you want a part window around the data and to be able to timestretch the automation?

i think I allready said something about the inability to timestretch automation data in Cubase. Just have a look at my very first post in this thread.

But your above post is about copying automation around which is entirely unrelated to timestretching automation (I am not telepathic).

What's the difference between MIDI notes (all the same note) and a groove?

The only reason the old Cubase extracted the MIDI notes to a part file was so they can be organised in folders, exchanged etc. (which the current SX method can not do BTW) but they both store the same MIDI note data.

NOOOOO!
One of the side effects was that you could use those notes to trigger a sampler!

I already described a way to do what you want, the only difference is you have to put the MIDI notes in yourself or quantize an existing series of MIDI notes.

Did you EVER try to enter ALL the required notes of a 5 minute kickdrum track by yourself?

As well as this, most third party beatslicing tools will also allow you to extract MIDI notes from a wav file (probably with better accuracy).

Not true. Hitpoints do a REALLY good job on this, I allready "hit pointed" a kick drum track perfectly.
I also made a q-template out of it, the dynamics are maintained as well - for whatever reason, you can even generate markers out of hitpoints, the only thing you CAN'T do is to transform them into notes and then have those notes trigger my sampler.
FWIW, I also own ReCycle and it won't do the job at all as MIDI export is limited to 127 notes max., due to the specialized job ReCycle is supposed to do (extracting slices and MIDI grooves out of rather short loops, rather than complete tracks).

See, "under the hood" all I'm asking for is allready there. Hitpoints actually DO exist as MIDI/position data (otherwise they couldn't be used as q-templates or to generate markers) and even the dynamics are maintained (which is proven by the fact, that whenever you use a hitpoint generated q-template, the quantized notes will adopt velocities of the template as well).

All it'd take is some rather simple function such as "extract hitpoint MIDI data to selected track" or so.

Yes like I said the data is the same.

If you only have one kick drum on a track then that is an ideal candidate for an audio to MIDI plugin (as you previously mentioned).

Hitpoint detection qualtiy varies, if you only have one kick drum then that should be fine.

Anyway try to use the tools at your disposal, mini semi-workaround for Sascha:

1) Import your five minute drum track to cubase SX3.
2) Double click it to open the audio editor
3) Right-click >> Hitpoints >> calculate hitpoints
4) Edit/whatever the hitpoints (see manual if you are not sure how) or don't bother and go to the next step
5) Right-click >> Hitpoints >> create groove quantize from hitpoints (choose the tempo if it asks you).
6) Create a MIDI part long enough for the drum track.
7) Open the key editor and manually input the first few notes close together on the grid
8) Duplicate all the notes until the track is filled
9) Highlight all the notes and go to MIDI >> quantize setup
10) Ensure the greatest "Max move in ticks" value is selected, as well as the groove you previously created
11) Apply the quantize
12) Ensure all the notes are selected and go to MIDI >> functions >> delete doubles.


Not perfect but it could work.

[ericj23]

or

import your audio track and extract timing as above

record a one bar midi part that roughly times with the bass drum and hard quantise to a suitable amount - 1/8ths let say

then repeat using alt (or repeat or duplicate) until its 5 minuts or so. then quantise with your newly extracted pattern - delete doubles

wont take too long

[Pawelm]

Cubase is a work in progress.

And don't we bloody know about it

[Pawelm]

thanks for your comments guys, didn't mean to start a war , I have just come back for a fresh format and now the decision is here, logic or cubase sx This is a tricky one !!!!!

[Sascha Franck]

I don't know which list you are refering to, all feature requests should be on the official forum.

Well, I often found the Cubase.net forums to be slow. My last registration try even failed due to their server permanently timing out.
However, the german Cubase list is small and still quite some programmers are reading it. Good chances to be heard.

But your above post is about copying automation around which is entirely unrelated to timestretching automation (I am not telepathic).

Well, perhaps I've been a bit unclear, but I was more or less referring to treating automation data like MIDI data - which is easier to copy and move around too. Let alone timestretching and partial mute-ments or so.

1) Import your five minute drum track to cubase SX3.
2) Double click it to open the audio editor
3) Right-click >> Hitpoints >> calculate hitpoints
4) Edit/whatever the hitpoints (see manual if you are not sure how) or don't bother and go to the next step
5) Right-click >> Hitpoints >> create groove quantize from hitpoints (choose the tempo if it asks you).
6) Create a MIDI part long enough for the drum track.
7) Open the key editor and manually input the first few notes close together on the grid
Duplicate all the notes until the track is filled
9) Highlight all the notes and go to MIDI >> quantize setup
10) Ensure the greatest "Max move in ticks" value is selected, as well as the groove you previously created
11) Apply the quantize
12) Ensure all the notes are selected and go to MIDI >> functions >> delete doubles.

I'll try to see how well it'll work

Not perfect but it could work.

I'm almost sure it'll work, but it could be a lot easier (especially considering that the technical background required is allready there).
In Logic:
- Doubleclick audio track
- Open "Audio to MIDI groove template"
- Chose preset (there's one almost working perfectly for most drums), eventually adjust the threshold and attack values.
- Extract
=> Done. Usually some minor corrections on the resulting MIDI track are required (such as deleting ultra low velocity notes), but there's a transformer preset doing it in seconds.

Really, it could just be there as well in Cubase, without any workaround - all that would be required was a function to simply create notes out of hitpoints.
And it'd even be better than in Logic because hitpoint detection is really good IMO, plus you can easily adjust (or add) them manually, which is impossible in Logic.

Anyways, thanks for the workaround steps, will try tomorrow.

[Purna]

Seems there's no way to use L and R mouse buttons to move the L and R locators ( It annoys the tits off me how long it takes to adjust loop points)

Ctr-Leftclick to set Left locator, Alt-Leftclick to set Right locator.

[stag]

i´m sorry for being a bit sour on my previous post.
i believe everybody here are people of good will so i migth have been way OT.

however , Sasha, the way you have begun your postindgs on the subject migth lead some people to feel some kind of hidden agenda lurking beneath your comments.
you have begun to highligth some SX features like background rendering,offline processing and full PDC ,just to later on make people believe like these are minor issues ...THEY ARE NOT.
then you concentrate your speech on the mixer and the velocity tool ,forgeting that the way SX handles presets and the full aceptance of any MIDI cc from the controllers make them obsolete.
Also the velocity tool Works fine with my copy of SX.
Drum Maps??? have you refered them ?? Do you know any other app that has anything that comes close to SX on that issue??

Intuitiveness ...is it an issue for you?? just pretend it´s the first time you are in front of a software sequencer. Wich do you believe you´d begin to have results fasters ??? Wich do you believe has the faster learning curve?? Logic?? i think not.

Also i like a lot the people hanging at KVR but the bashing over PC ,MAC ,Steinberg ,Logic and whatever, it´s rather useless.
From where i stand they are both Pro apps where putting a tune together ,editing and mixing can be done at an amazing speed.
i just wish i had both or even more.

All the best.