DAW suitable for orchestral work?

[bhuether]

Hi, I have been using Logic, but lately I am finding that my workflow requires certain things to be more efficient.

Here is what I need to work well:

1. Rapid transposition of all MIDI instruments. This can be tricky in DAWs because some instruments have key switches that shouldn't transpose of course. In Logic, best way seems to be to create separate track for key switches, but that is cumbersome if you have 50+ or so orchestral tracks. So ideally a modern DAW would abstract things up a level and let you apply a function "Transpose Project", where there would be track settings to determine what notes to ignore. Of course also ignore non pitched percussion tracks.

2. Multi MIDI track editing. If I have two tracks in Logic, say violin, cello, it gets tricky to edit the MIDI data of both in one piano roll view, especially tricky to switch back and forth in the one piano roll view among the track that I wish to edit.

3. Multi CC lane data viewable at once. In Logic this only works in the workspace view. But ideally one should be able to view multiple CC lanes in a piano roll view.

4. Video support. Nothing crazy needed - just basics.

5. Multi channel MIDI. In a single track I often have multiple articulations set by channel as opposed by keyswitch. In Logic when I want to assign MIDI channel in piano roll I hit cmd 7 to bring up list editor and alter MIDI channel that way. No big deal. But would be nice to not have to do that in a list editor.

6. Visual feedback of overall gain for a given region/clip. In Logic, sometimes I forget that I did something with region volume and all I see is track volume and I lose track of where I applied volume automation. Would be nice for some region/clip to see the overall gain displayed somewhere. So if track is -3dB, and region volume at some point is -2dB, then readily seeing -5dB would be useful.

7. Stable, and CPU efficient.

So curious based on above, what DAW do people feel works best? Maybe time for me to return to Reaper? Heck, for point 1 above in Reaper I could write a script to do a project MIDI transpose. But just something about the Reaper look/feel that sometimes feels uninspiring.

[apoclypse]

For number 1. Have you tried using articulation sets? You can use those to assign key switches and it shouldn’t change when you transpose. Also to transpose the whole project for example you can use the transposition global lane in Logic. Or just select multiple midi tracks and use the inspector to transpose. This shows you several ways to do what you want in Logic.

[syntonica]

The big ones are Cubase, DP and, of course, Logic. You might make a case for other DAWs, but for orchestral, these come to my mind first. The problem with any DAW is that MIDI support was meant for synths, not orchestras, so needed items were often cobbled on afterwards, making their implementations awkward or incomplete.

If you can learn to get along with Logic, that may be best since you're already familiar with it. Otherwise, read manuals to see how those DAWs handle your requirements and demo, demo, demo!

If you do decide to switch, it will require some time to get readjusted. While every DAW pretty much does the same things, they do them all in different ways to different degrees.

If you are scoring for video, or your goal is to, you'll want to take that into consideration as well.

Finally, consider a notation software, like Notion with the London Symphony built in. These usually have the tools you're looking for, although less piano roll and more staff paper.

[bhuether]

Thanks for that video link. I guess from what I am gathering articulation sets are the way to do.

[apoclypse]

Thanks for that video link. I guess from what I am gathering articulation sets are the way to do.

Yep. That's the best way to handle key switches in Logic without having to resort to multiple tracks. Also as you can see in the video you can also mark what tracks you don't want to transpose if you use the global transpose functionality. That can be helpful to you as well if you don't want to go back to older projects and start creating articulation sets. Just mark them as no transpose in the inspector and you should all set.

[SomethingSomeone]

2. Multi MIDI track editing. If I have two tracks in Logic, say violin, cello, it gets tricky to edit the MIDI data of both in one piano roll view, especially tricky to switch back and forth in the one piano roll view among the track that I wish to edit.

god I want this feature so bad. multi piano rolls open at one time should be a no brainer for any daw

[Skorobagatko]

Definitely Reaper,

[apoclypse]

2. Multi MIDI track editing. If I have two tracks in Logic, say violin, cello, it gets tricky to edit the MIDI data of both in one piano roll view, especially tricky to switch back and forth in the one piano roll view among the track that I wish to edit.

god I want this feature so bad. multi piano rolls open at one time should be a no brainer for any daw

Well you are in luck because you can open as many piano roll windows as you want in Logic (press CMD+4). Has been that way for quite some time. Setup a screenset and you are good to go.

Logic has been used for orchestral purposes for quite some time. Anything anyone thinks needs to be added is probably already there. You just need to RTM.

[jamcat]

Studio One Pro.

1. Rapid transposition of all MIDI instruments. This can be tricky in DAWs because some instruments have key switches that shouldn't transpose of course.

Studio One has something called Sound Variations. Keyswitches that you designate as Sound Variations appear in their own lane outside of the piano roll. Transposition does not affect Sound Variations, so your keyswitches will remain intact.

You can save and recall Sound Variation maps for instruments.

2. Multi MIDI track editing. If I have two tracks in Logic, say violin, cello, it gets tricky to edit the MIDI data of both in one piano roll view, especially tricky to switch back and forth in the one piano roll view among the track that I wish to edit.

Studio One has this. You can select multiple MIDI tracks to display and edit together on a single piano roll, as though they are the same part. Each track can have its own colour so you can easily distinguish them. I use this all the time when working with string quartets.

3. Multi CC lane data viewable at once. In Logic this only works in the workspace view. But ideally one should be able to view multiple CC lanes in a piano roll view.

In studio One, you can show as many automation tracks in the arrange window at once that you want.

4. Video support. Nothing crazy needed - just basics.

Yep. As of version 6.

5. Multi channel MIDI. In a single track I often have multiple articulations set by channel as opposed by keyswitch.

That's something that Cubase has, but not Studio One. PreSonus told me they feel that overlaying multiple MIDI channels in the editor is superior to multi-channel MIDI when I asked them about this very thing. It took me a while to get used to the Studio One way, having come from Cubase 10 years ago, as I also used articulations as you describe. But now, I couldn't even tell you the last time I thought about needing multi-channel MIDI. Mostly because all modern libraries seem to have pretty sophisticated keyswitch patches. Also because I use SWAM now.

6. Visual feedback of overall gain for a given region/clip.

Studio One has clip gain envelopes, but it's not anything I've ever used, so I can't tell you too much about it. Here's the section from the online manual: Clips and Clip Gain Envelopes

7. Stable, and CPU efficient.

I don't get crashes very often, but when I do, it's caused by a plugin, not the DAW, and it only happens when opening a song, not while working on it.

Multicore distribution seems pretty efficient, especially on Mac.

[Saffran]

2. Multi MIDI track editing. If I have two tracks in Logic, say violin, cello, it gets tricky to edit the MIDI data of both in one piano roll view, especially tricky to switch back and forth in the one piano roll view among the track that I wish to edit.

Studio One has this. You can select multiple MIDI tracks to display and edit together on a single piano roll, as though they are the same part. Each track can have its own colour so you can easily distinguish them. I use this all the time when working with string quartets.
[/quote]

Sounds like the track pane in Cakewalks pianoroll view.

[machinesworking]

So curious based on above, what DAW do people feel works best? Maybe time for me to return to Reaper? Heck, for point 1 above in Reaper I could write a script to do a project MIDI transpose. But just something about the Reaper look/feel that sometimes feels uninspiring.

So based on your criteria it's Digital Performer that meets your needs.
I own Reaper, DP and Logic in terms of orchestral facilitating DAWs, and to me anyway DP hands down for orchestral work. Mostly because it hits every point you made in terms of what you want.

1. Rapid transposition of all MIDI instruments. This can be tricky in DAWs because some instruments have key switches that shouldn't transpose of course. In Logic, best way seems to be to create separate track for key switches, but that is cumbersome if you have 50+ or so orchestral tracks. So ideally a modern DAW would abstract things up a level and let you apply a function "Transpose Project", where there would be track settings to determine what notes to ignore. Of course also ignore non pitched percussion tracks.

So as people have mentioned articulation maps cover this to a degree, there are settings to prevent drums from being transposed in DP etc.

2. Multi MIDI track editing. If I have two tracks in Logic, say violin, cello, it gets tricky to edit the MIDI data of both in one piano roll view, especially tricky to switch back and forth in the one piano roll view among the track that I wish to edit.

This is DP's forte, the Sequence Editor allows multiple open MIDI piano roll type tracks all visible at once etc. Plus you can also have separate MIDI graphic Editor windows for each track open at the same time if you want things huge and on different screens.

3. Multi CC lane data viewable at once. In Logic this only works in the workspace view. But ideally one should be able to view multiple CC lanes in a piano roll view.

This is possible in the Sequence Editor, inline MIDI etc.

4. Video support. Nothing crazy needed - just basics.

DP has extensive video support, more than what you or anyone needs.

5. Multi channel MIDI. In a single track I often have multiple articulations set by channel as opposed by keyswitch. In Logic when I want to assign MIDI channel in piano roll I hit cmd 7 to bring up list editor and alter MIDI channel that way. No big deal. But would be nice to not have to do that in a list editor.

This is possible, DP has multichannel MIDI tracks, but again, at this point articulation maps are a better option.

6. Visual feedback of overall gain for a given region/clip. In Logic, sometimes I forget that I did something with region volume and all I see is track volume and I lose track of where I applied volume automation. Would be nice for some region/clip to see the overall gain displayed somewhere. So if track is -3dB, and region volume at some point is -2dB, then readily seeing -5dB would be useful.

Clip volume is viewable per track and on all tracks.

7. Stable, and CPU efficient.

For me it is, there are people who complain. For me DP is super stable, slightly more CPU efficient than Logic, slightly less normally than Reaper. I have hundreds of plug ins, and recently migrated to an M1 Air where DP acts very well.

DP uses a similar articulation mapping protocol to Cubase, which IMO is better than what Logic does, which tends to hide the data in a way I don't get on with. It has a 30 day demo, so that's a place to start. There are other reasons to use DP for orchestral work, the main difference between DP and other DAWs is Chunks, and the way they behave in a project, they have multiple uses for large projects like orchestral and film work.

[Trensharo]

Studio One has this. You can select multiple MIDI tracks to display and edit together on a single piano roll, as though they are the same part. Each track can have its own colour so you can easily distinguish them. I use this all the time when working with string quartets.

Sounds like the track pane in Cakewalks pianoroll view.

Too bad Cakewalk is Windows-only, right?

If I were OP, I'd stay on Logic Pro. All of these DAWs have their positives and negatives. At this point in their development, you're trading one set of negatives for another.

[apoclypse]

Studio One has this. You can select multiple MIDI tracks to display and edit together on a single piano roll, as though they are the same part. Each track can have its own colour so you can easily distinguish them. I use this all the time when working with string quartets.

Sounds like the track pane in Cakewalks pianoroll view.

Too bad Cakewalk is Windows-only, right?

If I were OP, I'd stay on Logic Pro. All of these DAWs have their positives and negatives. At this point in their development, you're trading one set of negatives for another.

I agree. Seems like maybe they need to learn a bit more about what Logic can do it may do what they want already. Logic is very old and has a lot of forgotten functionality. Like for example if they haven't already taken a look at the Step Editor (not Step Sequencer. To open it go to Window > Open Step Editor), formerly known as hyper editor, they should. That's how we used to edit multiple automation lanes in the Piano Roll back in Logic 8/9/early version of X. I still use it versus the Step Sequencer for step drum programming for example.

Here is a video specifically for people who score in LPX.



Like I said Logic has so much in it that people don't actually know about or use.

[jancivil]

Cubase.
for 1) Logical Editor
2) I’ve not actually worked any other way, unless there was one part, a solo instrument. I select all the MIDI and it’s in one PR window. There is of course a solo edit switch.
I assume by 3) you mean more than one controller lane visible in PR within a part/event/track rather than seeing CC for all of those. no limitation here.
4) yep
5) yeah, for example sometimes I like a multi with a multitimbral inst. but just using a single part/track; each note may be given its own channel. Good for older instruments which use the Kontakt bank MO and this paradigm.
6) I have never thought in MIDI regions separate from the track, IDK
7) one will be hard pressed to predict this for another, particularly absent a description of the hardware/OS etc

[Tj Shredder]

Its seems everybody is happy with what they are used to use…