NI go VST 3

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Effects discussion
RELATED
PRODUCTS
User avatar
aMUSEd
KVRAF
34194 posts since 14 Sep, 2002 from In teh net

Post Mon Oct 31, 2022 5:09 am

aMUSEd wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 6:39 am
Echoes in the Attic wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 5:45 am
aMUSEd wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 3:27 am
D-Fusion wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:37 pm
aMUSEd wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:30 pm
D-Fusion wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:00 am
Then why do they only allow their own vst 3 plugins in Maschine and not open for other vst 3 plugins?
Because they want to make sure it works first with plugins they know inside out before opening it up to anything
Do you have any source for this information?
I find it weird that they add vst 3 support only to test their own plugins as they keep adding them.
After they added a few of them like they have now the vst 3 implementation should already be good to go.
Testing the vst 3 implementation by only locking it to their own products seems abit fishy to me but i hope you and Mr. E Dragon are correct and i am wrong on this one.

I have never seen other Daws doing this when they added vst 3 support.
I think you have to bear in mind NI have some very specific challenges moving over to VST3 - not only do they make plugins, they also make hosts (Komplete Kontrol and Maschine), but those hosts are not your standard 'DAWs', rather they are designed to have very tight integration with their plugins through the NKS 'ecosystem', where they function as librarians and controllers for the whole of NI's catalogue, as well as instruments and production tools. I guess this is one reason why it took them so long - they almost painted themselves in a corner by tying NKS to VST2 but now need to carefully get themselves out of that. So they need to test thoroughly the process of shifting their plugins to VST3, and making their hosts and NKS work nicely with that, because clearly their aim is for clicking on any NKS preset in KK and Maschine that previously loaded a VST2 version to now load a VST3 version of the same plugin. This makes sense from a future proofing standpoint. So for now they want to gradually get their whole ecosystem working smoothly first before opening it up to third party plugins, which they can't entirely predict the behaviour of or troubleshoot internally when things don't work.
I'm not sure if NI could even match the VST3's to the former VST2 presets? No other DAWs can do this as they are totally different plugins. Plus plugins that have NKS presets are all coming out with VST3' at different times. But I guess it's possible that as they are released NI will manually match them up, but I doubt it. I would think they'd lave it to the plugin devs to provide updated VST3 versions of the NKS presets. So NI would just have to provide VST3 compatibility. Come to think of it, I hadn't noticed what NI are doing with their own internal VST3's as far as NKS presets. I see that both versions of NI plugins are listed in the menu. But do the NKS presets for Massives and Kontakt and effects now use VST3?
As the link says they are already doing it - if you load a NKS preset now for Kontakt in Komplete Kontrol it opens the VST3 instead of the VST2, and same for the new VST3 versions of the Massives and I presume the FX too (harder to tell as I can't display their 'about' screen that shows the plugin type in KK). So far this has worked smoothly for me. I'm pretty sure this is possible with the NI range because they all use the same shared KK/Maschine readable preset format (variations on .nksf) whether VST2/3 or AU version. Clearly this is not a case of someone at NI having gone through each preset and resaved it because it works for imported third party Massive presets and my own too, and also for some third party Kontakt libraries I had imported, so I guess this is more a case of the host substituting the VST3 version for the VST2 (KK already had something similar with the 'prefer latest version' option in settings for people with Reaktor 5 and 6 or earlier versions of Kontakt on their systems and I can think of a couple of DAWS that allow one to prefer the VST3 version over the VST2 when you have both).

Whether this will be the case for third party VST3 plugins when opened up though is still an open question - I can imagine all sorts of complications potentially, if NI pull it off as well as their own internal transition seems to be going so far then hats off to them. I can certainly see why they want to start with doing it all internally first though.
Although some don't migrate tbh NI have managed to make this work with a lot more third party plugins than I expected so well done to NI for pulling such a complex thing off, plugins from AAS, Sugarbytes and iZotope for example migrate perfectly - these you might expect as they are longstanding NKS partners, but even plugins like those from Valhalla and Vital do. Some don't though eg Arturia and u-he.

User avatar
pixel85
KVRAF
1833 posts since 11 Apr, 2008

Post Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:18 am

deleted poooost

Echoes in the Attic
KVRAF
10188 posts since 12 May, 2008

Post Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:50 am

aMUSEd wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 5:09 am
aMUSEd wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 6:39 am
Echoes in the Attic wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 5:45 am
aMUSEd wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 3:27 am
D-Fusion wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:37 pm
aMUSEd wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:30 pm

Because they want to make sure it works first with plugins they know inside out before opening it up to anything
Do you have any source for this information?
I find it weird that they add vst 3 support only to test their own plugins as they keep adding them.
After they added a few of them like they have now the vst 3 implementation should already be good to go.
Testing the vst 3 implementation by only locking it to their own products seems abit fishy to me but i hope you and Mr. E Dragon are correct and i am wrong on this one.

I have never seen other Daws doing this when they added vst 3 support.
I think you have to bear in mind NI have some very specific challenges moving over to VST3 - not only do they make plugins, they also make hosts (Komplete Kontrol and Maschine), but those hosts are not your standard 'DAWs', rather they are designed to have very tight integration with their plugins through the NKS 'ecosystem', where they function as librarians and controllers for the whole of NI's catalogue, as well as instruments and production tools. I guess this is one reason why it took them so long - they almost painted themselves in a corner by tying NKS to VST2 but now need to carefully get themselves out of that. So they need to test thoroughly the process of shifting their plugins to VST3, and making their hosts and NKS work nicely with that, because clearly their aim is for clicking on any NKS preset in KK and Maschine that previously loaded a VST2 version to now load a VST3 version of the same plugin. This makes sense from a future proofing standpoint. So for now they want to gradually get their whole ecosystem working smoothly first before opening it up to third party plugins, which they can't entirely predict the behaviour of or troubleshoot internally when things don't work.
I'm not sure if NI could even match the VST3's to the former VST2 presets? No other DAWs can do this as they are totally different plugins. Plus plugins that have NKS presets are all coming out with VST3' at different times. But I guess it's possible that as they are released NI will manually match them up, but I doubt it. I would think they'd lave it to the plugin devs to provide updated VST3 versions of the NKS presets. So NI would just have to provide VST3 compatibility. Come to think of it, I hadn't noticed what NI are doing with their own internal VST3's as far as NKS presets. I see that both versions of NI plugins are listed in the menu. But do the NKS presets for Massives and Kontakt and effects now use VST3?
As the link says they are already doing it - if you load a NKS preset now for Kontakt in Komplete Kontrol it opens the VST3 instead of the VST2, and same for the new VST3 versions of the Massives and I presume the FX too (harder to tell as I can't display their 'about' screen that shows the plugin type in KK). So far this has worked smoothly for me. I'm pretty sure this is possible with the NI range because they all use the same shared KK/Maschine readable preset format (variations on .nksf) whether VST2/3 or AU version. Clearly this is not a case of someone at NI having gone through each preset and resaved it because it works for imported third party Massive presets and my own too, and also for some third party Kontakt libraries I had imported, so I guess this is more a case of the host substituting the VST3 version for the VST2 (KK already had something similar with the 'prefer latest version' option in settings for people with Reaktor 5 and 6 or earlier versions of Kontakt on their systems and I can think of a couple of DAWS that allow one to prefer the VST3 version over the VST2 when you have both).

Whether this will be the case for third party VST3 plugins when opened up though is still an open question - I can imagine all sorts of complications potentially, if NI pull it off as well as their own internal transition seems to be going so far then hats off to them. I can certainly see why they want to start with doing it all internally first though.
Although some don't migrate tbh NI have managed to make this work with a lot more third party plugins than I expected so well done to NI for pulling such a complex thing off, plugins from AAS, Sugarbytes and iZotope for example migrate perfectly - these you might expect as they are longstanding NKS partners, but even plugins like those from Valhalla and Vital do. Some don't though eg Arturia and u-he.
Oh some do migrate? I tried al mine and none worked after I removed the VST2 directory, guess it was bad luck. Arturia, Synapse, U-he, softube are all I have that third party which aren't Kontakt/Reaktor. So that's up to the developer to release NKS updates then? Or would some patch allow it to migrate?

User avatar
aMUSEd
KVRAF
34194 posts since 14 Sep, 2002 from In teh net

Post Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:46 am

My post on the NI forum seems to have got lost so I'll repost here:

I made a bunch of test templates I am happy to share now, mainly for VST3 only plugins (but also some new releases with VST3 and 2 but VST3 being preferred on Mac) - I've now shunted them to the NKS user library under VST3 NKS Plugins:

VST3 NKS Plugins

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/kg8m3y7boy4m ... rPFha?dl=0

These include:

Plasmonic

Equator 2

Surge XT

Novum

Padshop 2

Aaltoverb

GForce SEM VST3

Imagine

Quanta 2

Phosphor

Delta V Spacecraft (instrument and effect versions)

Korg OPSix Native and Wavestate Native

Noise Engineering Freequel Bundle

Waves CRe8 Sampler

Note unfortunately not all presets from VST2 NKS plugins work in the VST3 - Komplete Kontrol now supports 'migration' at the host end but this also needs to be supported at the developer end. Some such as AAS, UVI, Plugin Alliance, iZotope, Valhalla, Sugarbytes and Vital seem to manage it but others including Spectrasonics (on Mac at least), u-he, Arturia and several others are yet to implement migration in their plugins. This means for those you will still need the VST2 versions (which on Apple Silicon means running in Rosetta mode - but this is still necessary anyway if you want to run NI plugins like Reaktor and Massive X that are not yet native)

Obviously this also applies to Maschine

User avatar
aMUSEd
KVRAF
34194 posts since 14 Sep, 2002 from In teh net

Post Wed Nov 09, 2022 12:17 am

I’ve added some more to the VST3 NKS dropbox including for F’em, Biotek 2 and Imagine - these also have NKS presets and previews with the help of another NI forumite.

Also I’ve put together a list all all plugins tested so far that do migrate - it’s not bad actually although there are some gaps still too

https://community.native-instruments.co ... ist#latest

kmonkey
KVRAF
4488 posts since 17 Aug, 2004

Post Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:23 pm

aMUSEd wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 12:17 am I’ve added some more to the VST3 NKS dropbox including for F’em, Biotek 2 and Imagine - these also have NKS presets and previews with the help of another NI forumite.

Also I’ve put together a list all all plugins tested so far that do migrate - it’s not bad actually although there are some gaps still too

https://community.native-instruments.co ... ist#latest
So since I am new to the Maschine may I ask something because all of you seem to be really experienced with the whole ecosystem of NI. I belive I am on topic with my issue. A week before I obtained Maschine MK3 and so far so good with their stuff and plugins. The browser is working, preview files are fine, clicking on them is loading the correct instrument and sound, etc.

However, I noticed something rather odd and I am trying to understand what is happening.

Example: I am on Windows. I installed The Legend (Synapse) which claims to be NKS-ready. I installed only the VST3 version because well...that seems to be a shifting trend and everyone recommends it.

When I run the Maschine application I can see The Legend (VST3) is correctly detected, it is visible in the Maschine Plugin list, and Maschine can see it. When I go to the Maschine browser, and select Legend I can see all of the preview files associated with the Legend. I can PREHEAR them.

However, clicking on any preset files associated with the Legend is resulting in "The Legend could not be loaded".

But if I go to the Maschine Group editor, click on a + sign, and reveal the VST3 folder I can load Legend manually and it will load just fine. And from there I can play it with my Maschine MK3 keyboard.

However, I can not load Legend by browsing Maschine presets or previews. I mean I can load Legend presets with a mouse and by using my monitor screen and utilizing Legend's internal browser, that works but that defeats the purpose of being advertised as NKS-ready.

I was reading their forums and came to the conclusion that Maschine preset (and previews) in most cases tries to load VST2 versions. So because I only have VST3 version installed this is causing my Maschine application to not be able to load plugin correctly.

Because apparently Maschine formatted presets are trying to load VST2 version?

Am I correct or am I wrong?

And is there a solution or do I need to wait for a developer to catch up or do something so that Maschine presets and previews are loading correctly? Can I do something on my own?

mabian
KVRAF
2398 posts since 10 Jan, 2005

Post Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:57 pm

Isn't installing the VST2 version a solution?

User avatar
aMUSEd
KVRAF
34194 posts since 14 Sep, 2002 from In teh net

Post Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:48 am

kmonkey wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:23 pm
aMUSEd wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 12:17 am I’ve added some more to the VST3 NKS dropbox including for F’em, Biotek 2 and Imagine - these also have NKS presets and previews with the help of another NI forumite.

Also I’ve put together a list all all plugins tested so far that do migrate - it’s not bad actually although there are some gaps still too

https://community.native-instruments.co ... ist#latest
So since I am new to the Maschine may I ask something because all of you seem to be really experienced with the whole ecosystem of NI. I belive I am on topic with my issue. A week before I obtained Maschine MK3 and so far so good with their stuff and plugins. The browser is working, preview files are fine, clicking on them is loading the correct instrument and sound, etc.

However, I noticed something rather odd and I am trying to understand what is happening.

Example: I am on Windows. I installed The Legend (Synapse) which claims to be NKS-ready. I installed only the VST3 version because well...that seems to be a shifting trend and everyone recommends it.

When I run the Maschine application I can see The Legend (VST3) is correctly detected, it is visible in the Maschine Plugin list, and Maschine can see it. When I go to the Maschine browser, and select Legend I can see all of the preview files associated with the Legend. I can PREHEAR them.

However, clicking on any preset files associated with the Legend is resulting in "The Legend could not be loaded".

But if I go to the Maschine Group editor, click on a + sign, and reveal the VST3 folder I can load Legend manually and it will load just fine. And from there I can play it with my Maschine MK3 keyboard.

However, I can not load Legend by browsing Maschine presets or previews. I mean I can load Legend presets with a mouse and by using my monitor screen and utilizing Legend's internal browser, that works but that defeats the purpose of being advertised as NKS-ready.

I was reading their forums and came to the conclusion that Maschine preset (and previews) in most cases tries to load VST2 versions. So because I only have VST3 version installed this is causing my Maschine application to not be able to load plugin correctly.

Because apparently Maschine formatted presets are trying to load VST2 version?

Am I correct or am I wrong?

And is there a solution or do I need to wait for a developer to catch up or do something so that Maschine presets and previews are loading correctly? Can I do something on my own?
Hi yeah the problem is when VST3 was developed it was supposed to be possible to substitute the VST3 for the VST2 of the same plugin in a project and it should 'theoretically' load the same patch and automation params. This is referred to as 'migration'. This needs to be enabled in the host but Maschine and Komplete Kontrol do support migration, the problem is not all developers have enabled it in their plugins (it has to be in host and plugin). So the host is looking for the VST2 still for those patches and is not able to just swap it for the VST3 (and if it did it would likely not work properly anyway)

The workaround, as stated, is to continue to use VST2, on Windows this is less of a problem because on Apple Silicon VST2 is no longer supported so you can only do that on AS Macs by also enabling Rosetta 2. But that's no good for Mac users on AS who don't want to use Rosetta of Windows users who want to switch to VST3. In the long term though hopefully more devs will implement migration - we are finding in test that a lot of plugins do support migration on a preset level (they load the preset and it sounds right) but not automation so params end up misaligned. I made a list of plugins that do support migration already and I am aware NI are working with at least some of their 'NKS partners' to support them making the transition, but I also know they were slower to do this than they could have been.

https://community.native-instruments.co ... ist#latest

Some of us on the NI forum have also been actively making VST3 NKS patches now (for those that don't support migration plus those plugins that only now exist as VST3) and over time the VST2 versions will no longer be needed.

https://community.native-instruments.co ... ary#latest

https://community.native-instruments.co ... ine#latest

kmonkey
KVRAF
4488 posts since 17 Aug, 2004

Post Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:39 am

aMUSEd wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:48 am I’ve added some more to the VST3 NKS dropbox including for F’em, Biotek 2 and Imagine - these also have NKS presets and previews with the help of another NI forumite.

Also I’ve put together a list all all plugins tested so far that do migrate - it’s not bad actually although there are some gaps still too

https://community.native-instruments.co ... ist#latest
That's exactly the info I was looking for. Much appreciated, thank you. A relief. Have a great weekend.

kevinsparks
KVRist
411 posts since 28 Jul, 2016

Post Fri Dec 02, 2022 6:32 pm

when can we expect CLAP support

PieBerger
KVRAF
1638 posts since 23 May, 2012 from London

Post Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:47 pm

kevinsparks wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 6:32 pm when can we expect CLAP support
Probably never
Always Read the Manual!

User avatar
aMUSEd
KVRAF
34194 posts since 14 Sep, 2002 from In teh net

Post Mon Dec 26, 2022 3:49 am

aMUSEd wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:48 am
kmonkey wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:23 pm
aMUSEd wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 12:17 am I’ve added some more to the VST3 NKS dropbox including for F’em, Biotek 2 and Imagine - these also have NKS presets and previews with the help of another NI forumite.

Also I’ve put together a list all all plugins tested so far that do migrate - it’s not bad actually although there are some gaps still too

https://community.native-instruments.co ... ist#latest
So since I am new to the Maschine may I ask something because all of you seem to be really experienced with the whole ecosystem of NI. I belive I am on topic with my issue. A week before I obtained Maschine MK3 and so far so good with their stuff and plugins. The browser is working, preview files are fine, clicking on them is loading the correct instrument and sound, etc.

However, I noticed something rather odd and I am trying to understand what is happening.

Example: I am on Windows. I installed The Legend (Synapse) which claims to be NKS-ready. I installed only the VST3 version because well...that seems to be a shifting trend and everyone recommends it.

When I run the Maschine application I can see The Legend (VST3) is correctly detected, it is visible in the Maschine Plugin list, and Maschine can see it. When I go to the Maschine browser, and select Legend I can see all of the preview files associated with the Legend. I can PREHEAR them.

However, clicking on any preset files associated with the Legend is resulting in "The Legend could not be loaded".

But if I go to the Maschine Group editor, click on a + sign, and reveal the VST3 folder I can load Legend manually and it will load just fine. And from there I can play it with my Maschine MK3 keyboard.

However, I can not load Legend by browsing Maschine presets or previews. I mean I can load Legend presets with a mouse and by using my monitor screen and utilizing Legend's internal browser, that works but that defeats the purpose of being advertised as NKS-ready.

I was reading their forums and came to the conclusion that Maschine preset (and previews) in most cases tries to load VST2 versions. So because I only have VST3 version installed this is causing my Maschine application to not be able to load plugin correctly.

Because apparently Maschine formatted presets are trying to load VST2 version?

Am I correct or am I wrong?

And is there a solution or do I need to wait for a developer to catch up or do something so that Maschine presets and previews are loading correctly? Can I do something on my own?
Hi yeah the problem is when VST3 was developed it was supposed to be possible to substitute the VST3 for the VST2 of the same plugin in a project and it should 'theoretically' load the same patch and automation params. This is referred to as 'migration'. This needs to be enabled in the host but Maschine and Komplete Kontrol do support migration, the problem is not all developers have enabled it in their plugins (it has to be in host and plugin). So the host is looking for the VST2 still for those patches and is not able to just swap it for the VST3 (and if it did it would likely not work properly anyway)

The workaround, as stated, is to continue to use VST2, on Windows this is less of a problem because on Apple Silicon VST2 is no longer supported so you can only do that on AS Macs by also enabling Rosetta 2. But that's no good for Mac users on AS who don't want to use Rosetta of Windows users who want to switch to VST3. In the long term though hopefully more devs will implement migration - we are finding in test that a lot of plugins do support migration on a preset level (they load the preset and it sounds right) but not automation so params end up misaligned. I made a list of plugins that do support migration already and I am aware NI are working with at least some of their 'NKS partners' to support them making the transition, but I also know they were slower to do this than they could have been.

https://community.native-instruments.co ... ist#latest

Some of us on the NI forum have also been actively making VST3 NKS patches now (for those that don't support migration plus those plugins that only now exist as VST3) and over time the VST2 versions will no longer be needed.

https://community.native-instruments.co ... ary#latest

https://community.native-instruments.co ... ine#latest
Just an update to show how much progress has been made.

u-he plugins now migrate fine between VST2 and VST3 NKS versions and there are many more plugins that now migrate including the recent Sylenth VST3 update (see list in thread on the NI forum above)

In terms of NKS support for VST3 plugins we now have complete conversions for:

Dawesome Kult, Novum and Abyss
Tracktion F'em and Biotek 2
Plasmonic
Tal Mod
Surge XT
Fabfilter Twin 2
Equator 2
Korg Modwave, Wavestate and OPSix
Disco DSP Discovery Pro
GForce OB-E
Quanta 2
Valhalla DSP FX
Liquidsonics Cinematic Rooms and Seventh Heaven
Aaltoverb
Padshop 2
Spitfire LABS
Baby Audio Bundle

these were all created collaboratively within the NI forum community and are in the NKS User Library (in my sig)

Also our friends at Freelance Soundlabs have also updated many of their NKS conversions to VST3 including for Spectrasonics, Cherry Audio, Roland Cloud and Korg Bundle plugins

Still not yet compatible as NKS (except using Rosetta 2 - although I would stress the plugins themselves are in most cases) are:

Synapse Audio
Arturia
Rob Papen
Newfangled Audio

but the first 3 are all NKS partners and I believe are working on this with NI to fix the migration issues and Newfangled Audio should be able to implement migration themselves as all other Eventide plugins already migrate perfectly fine.

Return to “Effects”