Double tracking timing processing tools

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chagzuki
KVRAF
Topic Starter
2872 posts since 26 Mar, 2002 from london

Post Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:06 am

It's rare that I record vocals so I'm not really familiar with professional tools in this area. I'm wondering if certain DAWs or suites have specialised automated editing tools to tighten up/decrease the timing differences between double-tracked audio.
Every day takes figuring out all over again how to f#ckin’ live.

enroe
KVRAF
2066 posts since 19 Mar, 2008 from germany

Post Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:57 pm

I guess I'll have to disappoint you: when it comes to how it's done
"professionally", the result is: The tracks are adjusted by hand syllable
by syllable.
:wink:
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BertKoor
KVRAF
14226 posts since 8 Mar, 2005 from Utrecht, Holland

Post Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:03 am

... and singers / players that cannot deliver a consistent timing get a lot of heat from the engineer / producer.
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Unaspected
KVRAF
3177 posts since 4 May, 2012

Post Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:36 am

enroe wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:57 pm I guess I'll have to disappoint you: when it comes to how it's done
"professionally", the result is: The tracks are adjusted by hand syllable
by syllable.
:wink:
This.

There are phase alignment tools for "stereo" recordings. But when it comes to additional tracks for vocals, guitars, etc. the phase alignment requires working by eye and ear with several slices and sometimes some time-stretching - though it is also possible to duplicate sections and crossfade to avoid time-stretching. This process can be quite forgiving, depending on the processes to follow. For example, you can get away with a lot when it comes to guitar DIs and when it's later re-amped, it will likely sound just fine. Up-front vocals, not so much.

Most important thing is to respect the transients and leave them unprocessed by any time stretching, if it is to be employed.

One thing that can be done after the editing phase, or as a shortcut, is to envelope one with the other - or vocode. This can be done for syncing background layers with a lead vocal, if you want to be sure the tails match up and spacing is equal. It won't correct timing within words, of course.

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andymcbain
KVRian
557 posts since 10 Jan, 2017

Post Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:48 am


chagzuki
KVRAF
Topic Starter
2872 posts since 26 Mar, 2002 from london

Post Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:04 pm

andymcbain wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:48 am Vocalign - https://www.synchroarts.com/products/vo ... a/overview

But it's expensive
Aha, cheers, would have been odd if such an obvious product hadn't been developed. And there it is.
Every day takes figuring out all over again how to f#ckin’ live.

Unaspected
KVRAF
3177 posts since 4 May, 2012

Post Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:32 am

andymcbain wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:48 am Vocalign - https://www.synchroarts.com/products/vo ... a/overview

But it's expensive
If it really can replace that phase of editing then it's dirt cheap, considering the time it takes to edit. I'll be surprised if it can perform as a professional editor but I'll definitely check it out.

Ah. Just read one of the quotes, "I'm still doing most of my timing adjustments by hand". I think this might speed up the comping process but I imagine you'll still have to prep it for the engine to perform best.

EDIT: Replied below...
Last edited by Unaspected on Thu Dec 08, 2022 4:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

chagzuki
KVRAF
Topic Starter
2872 posts since 26 Mar, 2002 from london

Post Thu Dec 08, 2022 4:43 am

Unaspected wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:32 am If it really can replace that phase of editing then it's dirt cheap, considering the time it takes to edit. I'll be surprised if it can perform as a professional editor but I'll definitely check it out.

Ah. Just read one of the quotes, "I'm still doing most of my timing adjustments by hand". I think this might speed up the comping process but I imagine you'll still have to prep it for the engine to perform best.
Perhaps it's a case of the editing being reduced largely to the guide track, which in all likelihood is the best take anyway?

I'll have to try it, but I wonder how it decides how much to shift certain parts, e.g. will everything be nudged by a percentage towards the guide track, or will the more out of time elements be shifted in a weighted way, by a higher percentage/logarithmic curve etc.?
Every day takes figuring out all over again how to f#ckin’ live.

Unaspected
KVRAF
3177 posts since 4 May, 2012

Post Thu Dec 08, 2022 5:10 am

chagzuki wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 4:43 am
Unaspected wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:32 am If it really can replace that phase of editing then it's dirt cheap, considering the time it takes to edit. I'll be surprised if it can perform as a professional editor but I'll definitely check it out.

Ah. Just read one of the quotes, "I'm still doing most of my timing adjustments by hand". I think this might speed up the comping process but I imagine you'll still have to prep it for the engine to perform best.
Perhaps it's a case of the editing being reduced largely to the guide track, which in all likelihood is the best take anyway?

I'll have to try it, but I wonder how it decides how much to shift certain parts, e.g. will everything be nudged by a percentage towards the guide track, or will the more out of time elements be shifted in a weighted way, by a higher percentage/logarithmic curve etc.?
At first I was thinking it would be based around transient detection - and knowing how shaky that can be, I didn't have high expectations. But this could be done via correlation similar to that performed during a Fourier Transform - without needing to resynthesise. So, maybe my cynicism was premature. I'd love it to work.

EDIT: [Oh, and yes. I'm sure you'll have to make the first comp and provide that as a guide.]

What seems too complex would be those transient slices and time-stretching that I mentioned above - because that is as much an artistic choice as it can be practical. Control over automated processes is definitely essential. With beat slicing or mapping for timing, I still find I have to dial things back and make corrections here and there.

Another process I'll have to try this out on is alignment of drum hits and see how it fairs there.

I was just updating my post when you replied so I'll tack that on here:

People seem to be raving about it on Gearspace so maybe it is useful. Going to demo this weekend on some stoner rock vocals and see what it can do. Was completely unaware of this and it looks like the company is pretty much next door to me. :dog:

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