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Unaspected
KVRAF
3177 posts since 4 May, 2012

Post Fri Nov 11, 2022 1:17 pm

roiikkata wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 10:03 amThat being said, I think I might begin with freezing them, trying keeping effects in the wavs or not. Seeing what happens either or. I also think freezing them from hardware might have a better latency timing output.
Keep in mind that, unless you aren't planning on using a unit for a secondary purpose then you won't be able to unfreeze and regain the sound. In addition to this, if you are bouncing your reverb track then it also means you won't be able to further adjust any channels that fed it.

Latency will depend on the round journey - out of your interface, through the effect processor and back in again. You'll have to calculate latency based on how you set things up.

I don't want to persuade you either way. You'll know what you need; what interests and motivates you best. I do think that restriction both gives rise to creativity and a more distinct sound - so this could well a worthwhile endeavour. Do make sure you check out your options ahead of any purchases and demo plenty of reverb, modulation and delay plugins as these have come along leaps and bounds in the last decade.

kritikon
KVRAF
6927 posts since 24 May, 2002 from Tutukaka, New Zealand

Post Fri Nov 11, 2022 9:45 pm

sjm wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 12:05 pm The benefit to hardware FX to me is if you have hardware instruments and you like to jam on them without having to fire up the DAW. It's nice to be able to run a synth or guitar through an FX unit while you jam around. The way everything is set up, I just need to flick a switch on my mixer, and I can send any signal to the FX and blend the return signal in to taste.
That's a very good point. :tu: HW FX is invaluable for that - I find diddling about trying to get DAW FX on a hw synth just for noodling is a real PITA. That's probably why I still keep a couple of hw FX in my rack.

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roiikkata
KVRer
Topic Starter
23 posts since 8 Nov, 2016

Post Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:31 pm

Sorry! I didn't see all these replies til now. My fault!

Is what you guys were saying is that once you record the audio from the VST through the mixer is that it stays that way, in the sound? I already know this. Also, I use FL Studio which has an option to have the DAW export from "Pre" or "Post" effects for each track. So in routing the audio from the out of one mixer track to the in of the next it's going to export like that, I believe.

I see what you're trying to say though and I could be wrong. Like I said, I haven't done it yet, as I have to get the actual modules for the reverb.

I also see what you guys are saying about having to freeze it while the reverb hardware is live, because when it exports it might not even play through the chain. In FL there's a lone VST called "Wormhole" which you can have run through IP address to a second instance of it and then two more pairs of it to recieve back, the audio. I "might" be able to have those instances recieve the audio IN the actual FL mixer slots instead, because as far as I know, during export, it only reads/mixes down from the effects slots themselves, NOT the INs and Outs routs, in which I think you guys are correct on that.

I'm thinking I could use something like instances of SAVIhost to attach the effects hardware externally then run it back through Wormhole to FL, POSSIBLY. Also thinking it'd be less efficient because Wormhole and SAVIhost running for each send or effects slot might be too tasking on the CPU, in itself. BUT! however, I could literally extend and or chain the reverb tail time to as long as I wanted without it having much effect of the CPU of the PC, as they would be running off the separate hardware, anyways.

We're just talking somewhat new techniques here, because I did a bunch of research on it online and found minimal results. New techniques of which I'm known for. As, actual effects items instead of hardware (even analog) to make effects with. Mind you.

I'm thinking I'm going to stick with having the effects play live and go from there. Like I said, I know OF freezing, I just don't like it. I believe if you have to freeze to save CPU and it can't be run live and exported on the fly that's not progress, because I'm trying to start online and then out into the real world and stay that way. Not stay online and just take in income from streaming music plays and all that. No disrespect! But ya, just not my thing. I'm the outdoors type.
child of the sun

"learn from the past, live in the moment, love for the future"

Unaspected
KVRAF
3177 posts since 4 May, 2012

Post Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:32 am

Audio is bounced from the output of the channel - which prints any active effect processing in the resultant audio file. If you want to do this at any stage within an effect chain then you could split it over two channels.

roiikkata wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:31 pm freezing
It's more the terminology that I was getting at: The difference between freezing and bouncing audio. The idea of freezing audio suggests that it can also be unfrozen so that previous processors become live again. This isn't something that will be possible for identical sound if you want to use the hardware for some other task, unless you bounce that, have photographed the settings then dial them back in and re-patch. It also will not be "identical" - whether this matters or not is subjective. For me, it doesn't matter - but it would be expected behaviour when working with plugins, which is why I am mentioning it.

So we're really talking about bouncing the audio - printing it to tape/disk - and then you won't be able to make any changes up-stream. Which means you'll also have to bounce or freeze any channels feeding the send. So you're very much locked into using these devices in fixed positions of the mix if you want to keep it all running live. This isn't really an issue for send effects with most musical genres but it is something you might want to consider when producing ambient. It really depends on your working method and use of hardware will enforce a certain type of workflow.

If I'm following what you're saying correctly, the functionality of Wormhole isn't new - being able to send and return audio from within an effect chain - but would definitely lock down whichever hardware units you are using for that task only. Of course, you might like to do this on a send so that you have some processing ahead of and behind the external hardware. Though, as I say, you can still do this using two channels, without need for any additional software - where the first channel is everything behind the hardware and the second is everything ahead of; splitting the effect chain over those two channels.

One thing you might like to try before getting any hardware is routing audio in your mixer so that it performs a round trip out of your audio interface and straight back in. Then you can calculate the latency involved and set something up to correct for that and you'll be ready to plug in your hardware when you get it. :)

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roiikkata
KVRer
Topic Starter
23 posts since 8 Nov, 2016

Post Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:57 am

Unaspected wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:32 am
It's more the terminology that I was getting at
Makes sense. Ya, freezing and patching in can get tedious. Especially in FL. I don't mind working with wavs or audio files in general. It's just keeping track of them, if anything. Image Line recently made updates similar to Bitwig where you can literally bounce in place by right clicking from the loop selection panel list and you can undo it. Also "unbounce" tracks, I believe. I'm out on my deck so I'd have to go in to check. Less of an undo function as I THINK it saves where it came from, per instance, for you. If not I'm sure they could. No different than an undo list with interchangeable entries.
Unaspected wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:32 am So we're really talking about bouncing the audio
That. Ya. My fault. I should have been more clear.
Unaspected wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:32 am If I'm following what you're saying correctly, the functionality of Wormhole isn't new
I've heard that before. I just tend not to pry. Live and let live. Go with the flow. Every producer has their techniques and I respect that, also, so ..
Unaspected wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:32 am
One thing you might like to try before getting any hardware is routing audio in your mixer so that it performs a round trip out of your audio interface and straight back in. Then you can calculate the latency involved and set something up to correct for that and you'll be ready to plug in your hardware when you get it. :)
Was thinking this, exactly. The latency might be too much of an issue to do live playback. I ran into similar issues running dual PCs in tandem with each other, n sync, over LAN cable. I don't make enough yet to get anything like a Dante card or the like, just yet. I might either have to set their timings and keep it a composition-only desktop or record MIDI separately on my Macbook then put it in to the desktop. That'd be my optimal setup in that scenario.

- I'm trying to stay away from the bouncing because I like to be able to mod the loop in the piece and it changes them all at the same time, wherever they are. However! If FL does in fact save an "unbounce" type of reversal process, then I just might do that. As it'd be similar to this loop modding process I like; just undo them before I mod them, then re-bounce? I'm somewhat new to the process so I might have just described "freezing" in full. Not sure. Lol :D
child of the sun

"learn from the past, live in the moment, love for the future"

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roiikkata
KVRer
Topic Starter
23 posts since 8 Nov, 2016

Post Fri Dec 09, 2022 5:01 am

Unaspected wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:32 am The idea of freezing audio suggests that it can also be unfrozen so that previous processors become live again. This isn't something that will be possible for identical sound if you want to use the hardware for some other task, unless you bounce that, have photographed the settings then dial them back in and re-patch. It also will not be "identical" - whether this matters or not is subjective.
Woahhh wait. Are you saying I could freeze from a send track, though ?? THAT might be the answer I am looking for, then.

Just re-read your reply just now over here. Goodmorning! 8)
child of the sun

"learn from the past, live in the moment, love for the future"

Unaspected
KVRAF
3177 posts since 4 May, 2012

Post Fri Dec 09, 2022 6:54 am

roiikkata wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:57 am
Unaspected wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:32 am
It's more the terminology that I was getting at
Makes sense. Ya, freezing and patching in can get tedious. Especially in FL. I don't mind working with wavs or audio files in general. It's just keeping track of them, if anything. Image Line recently made updates similar to Bitwig where you can literally bounce in place by right clicking from the loop selection panel list and you can undo it. Also "unbounce" tracks, I believe. I'm out on my deck so I'd have to go in to check. Less of an undo function as I THINK it saves where it came from, per instance, for you. If not I'm sure they could. No different than an undo list with interchangeable entries.
Isn't that for consolidation? Essentially to print multiple clips to one audio file. I think that's been in since the last version - though I've yet to install FL 21 so I've yet to see what's new.

roiikkata wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:57 am
Unaspected wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:32 am One thing you might like to try before getting any hardware is routing audio in your mixer so that it performs a round trip out of your audio interface and straight back in. Then you can calculate the latency involved and set something up to correct for that and you'll be ready to plug in your hardware when you get it. :)
Was thinking this, exactly. The latency might be too much of an issue to do live playback. I ran into similar issues running dual PCs in tandem with each other, n sync, over LAN cable. I don't make enough yet to get anything like a Dante card or the like, just yet. I might either have to set their timings and keep it a composition-only desktop or record MIDI separately on my Macbook then put it in to the desktop. That'd be my optimal setup in that scenario.
If you're contemplating such outboard tech, you might want to consider sinking that money into upgrading your CPU first. Especially if you want to be doing this all live.

roiikkata wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:57 am - I'm trying to stay away from the bouncing because I like to be able to mod the loop in the piece and it changes them all at the same time, wherever they are. However! If FL does in fact save an "unbounce" type of reversal process, then I just might do that. As it'd be similar to this loop modding process I like; just undo them before I mod them, then re-bounce? I'm somewhat new to the process so I might have just described "freezing" in full. Not sure. Lol :D
Yeah. Freezing is essentially a bounce that can be undone/unfrozen at a click: Reinstating any plugins that were part of the chain. I've not used it in FL Studio but it's been around for quite some time in other DAWs and the process should be the same. In Reaper you get a new channel with the bounced audio and all plugins disabled but otherwise kept on their own channel. So the action is quick to undo if something needs to be changed.

roiikkata wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 5:01 am
Unaspected wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:32 am The idea of freezing audio suggests that it can also be unfrozen so that previous processors become live again. This isn't something that will be possible for identical sound if you want to use the hardware for some other task, unless you bounce that, have photographed the settings then dial them back in and re-patch. It also will not be "identical" - whether this matters or not is subjective.
Woahhh wait. Are you saying I could freeze from a send track, though ?? THAT might be the answer I am looking for, then.

Just re-read your reply just now over here. Goodmorning! 8)
Hehe. Good morning!

Well, I'm more warning that, if you have your hardware on a send but want to use it elsewhere then you'll have to bounce/freeze not only the send but all the other channels feeding into it. This would also include their respective effect plugins. So it really isn't very practical if you have your mixer set up in a traditional manner. As you're looking at producing ambient, however, you might have other plans and different routing for each project, so this might not be a concern for you.

Do make sure you check out plugin reverbs and delays before investing in hardware though. The only reverb I would go out of the box for would be for physical/mechanical processes - actual spaces, plates, etc. Otherwise, you're really well covered by plugins these days.

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roiikkata
KVRer
Topic Starter
23 posts since 8 Nov, 2016

Post Fri Dec 09, 2022 7:17 am

Ok that all makes sense, now. Crystal clear. Ya, I have Native Instruments Raum is my best so far. I try to keep it simple over here but get extravagant sometimes. It's literally Ambient mixed with EDM, a Hip Hop influence and adding lyrics later and collab on the way. Lots of downtime recently (about six months to before like 5 years) cuz I had to move shop over & over. Turned out to be the rental agency going behind my back! So back in the loop now, somewhat. I base my stuff off nature and am getting into it slow, again. Slow and steady. Big BIG plans.

And, to be honest? I'm literally not that big on effects. But quality over quantity, my friend. Especially in days like these.

To be continued . . .
child of the sun

"learn from the past, live in the moment, love for the future"

Unaspected
KVRAF
3177 posts since 4 May, 2012

Post Fri Dec 09, 2022 10:06 am

roiikkata wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 7:17 am Ok that all makes sense, now. Crystal clear. Ya, I have Native Instruments Raum is my best so far. I try to keep it simple over here but get extravagant sometimes. It's literally Ambient mixed with EDM, a Hip Hop influence and adding lyrics later and collab on the way. Lots of downtime recently (about six months to before like 5 years) cuz I had to move shop over & over. Turned out to be the rental agency going behind my back! So back in the loop now, somewhat. I base my stuff off nature and am getting into it slow, again. Slow and steady. Big BIG plans.

And, to be honest? I'm literally not that big on effects. But quality over quantity, my friend. Especially in days like these.

To be continued . . .
Sounds good. I like that you're using nature as a source for inspiration. You'll have no doubt checked out the new freebie from NI: https://www.native-instruments.com/en/s ... gift-2022/

I've yet to download but the demos sound good.

I'd also recommend you check out Fuse Audio Labs' VREV-305 spring reverb and VREV-140 plate, to complement Raum's crystal clear sound. The 305 doesn't sound anything like classic spring reverb; It's really dense sounding and can create swirling ambiences with great depth. Do wait for the next sale - though the sound quality more than justifies the asking price.

You might also like the library that comes with AudioThing's F*G Convolver - Some really unique and creative impulse responses that you might resonate with, considering your muse.

Though, of course, you have Convolver in FL Studio, which is unmatched in terms of editing functionality. I would definitely spend some time checking out the IR links here and maybe experiment with making some of your own.

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