Why do establised geniuses like Gabriel and Ferry suck now?

[paul minot]

Over the past few months I have been listening to the remastered "Lamb Lies Down on Broadway", along with other PG-era Genesis albums like "Foxtrot", and "Selling England by the Pound". The Peter Gabriel of that era was gushing with lyrical fancies, yes whimsical, fey, pretentious at times, but daring as hell and NEVER dull. I have liked a lot of his solo work, but over the years there has been a steady deterioration in the quantity of his work, and the imagination therof, IMO. His last album was turgid as can be, his singing was ponderous, the production was dated and overblown, the music went nowhere harmonically, it was more pretentious in tone than ANYTHING he did in the progrock era, and it was ABSOLUTELY NO FUN whatsoever. The only attempt at humor was "The Barry Williams Show", and it fell flat as a pancake, as far as I'm concerned. Honestly, in this day of rap and cookie cutter "alternative", I hunger for musicianship--but try as I might, I can't help but dislike the album. What the hell happened to the guy that wrote and sang "Supper's Ready"? If this is "mature" progressive music, well it seems more like DEAD to me--give me the kid's stuff any day.

I've been listening to the remastered Roxy Music albums, "Country Life" and "Stranded" too, and the same f**king thing has happened to Bryan Ferry--making allegedly "intelligent" music in his later years, which is witless, gutless, and passionless. (I don't consider somber whining to be passionate.) What the f**k happens to these guys??!! I'm an old f**ker, but I still like the young stuff--Bryan Ferry even did QUIET better in his younger years, check out "Sunset" if you don't believe me. I make pop music now, but I still get a first class chest-thumping buzz off of good hard thrash, like System of a Down--don't other old f**kers?? Doesn't Bryan Ferry listen to these old albums and realize that what he's doing now isn't SHIT compared to what he used to do??? Can it be that Gabriel thinks this boring pretentious turgid crap he's doing now is worth a shit next to, say, "Solsbury Hill"? He apparently idolizes these African musicians, but hasn't he noticed that their music is vibrant, fun, and full of life--and his isn't?

Not all musicians have aged so poorly--XTC, Neil Young, Bob Dylan come to mind as notable exceptions. But I kind of think that geniuses like Ferry and Gabriel would have done a better job of it.

Just my provocative two cents worth. Now you can discuss and rebut if you wish.

[ugo]

i rather enjoyed peter gabriel's up. not his best work ever, but still entertaining. i really love the opening track, darkness. i found it to be rather powerfull.

But I kind of think that geniuses like Ferry and Gabriel would have done a better job of it.

you never know when/if the genious of someone like him will strike again. some of these guys can go through a decade or so releasing a string of mediocre cds, then release a truely fantastic album again.

-ugo

[Voidoid Surrealist]

I was just listening to The Knife yesterday and thinking the same thing...

Actually, the more I hear that song, the more I think it was his finest hour. Almost verges on being Genesis's flirtation with heavy metal. I'd love to hear a metal band cover it, or has that already happened?

[kilroy]

Often in life, one walks the paths of mediocrity in the search of greater enlightenment.

Motion is much to be prefered over stasis.

[Caleb]

It's also possible that they're just going in a different direction because it's a natural transition for them.

I haven't heard the latest Peter Gabriel album so I don't know if it's good or not.

But I was just reflecting inwardly the other day how I'm craving to do some mellow blues something I never would have wanted to do previously.

I'm beginning to suprise myself with directions I want to take at the moment because I thought I'd natural lean towards electronica (something I still want to do) with the wealth of synthesis capabilities I now have. Strangely enough though after gathering all this equipment together to produce an electronica tour de force all I seem to want to do is write music with pianos and cellos and strings and upright basses.

What happened to me?

I guess if it can happen to me it can happen to anyone right?

And a change of direction is a funny thing. It can generate respect from listeners or contempt.

Anyway - it's not really an argument as such. Just a thought more than anything.

Caleb

[Nax]

I'm an old f**ker, but I still like the young stuff

You like what you were listening to when your brain was more capable of creating new neuron connections that activate some chemical soup in your brain that you interpret as emotional response to audio stimuli.

Meaning, what you were listening to is as much noise as what you're listening to now -- it is your brain that responds differently to what you're listening to now.

I don't know if Gabriel is able to evoke the same response from younger people like he was doing with the "Broadway" album (which is one of my all time favorites), but certainly he has aged too since then and his brain now does not respond the same way to what he hears either.

After all he created all that stuff and has heard it about two million times more than anyone else.

[paul minot]

I was just listening to The Knife yesterday and thinking the same thing...

Actually, the more I hear that song, the more I think it was his finest hour. Almost verges on being Genesis's flirtation with heavy metal. I'd love to hear a metal band cover it, or has that already happened?

Have you heard the version of "Return of the Giant Hogweed" on "Genesis Live"? The ending of that song IS pure metal--Collins' pummeling drums, Tony Banks' grinding Mellotron power chords, Hackett's shrieking guitar, Gabriel's death wail---SCAAAARY!!!! (Great version of "The Knife" there as well!)

[paul minot]

I'm an old f**ker, but I still like the young stuff

You like what you were listening to when your brain was more capable of creating new neuron connections that activate some chemical soup in your brain that you interpret as emotional response to audio stimuli.

Meaning, what you were listening to is as much noise as what you're listening to now -- it is your brain that responds differently to what you're listening to now.

I don't know if Gabriel is able to evoke the same response from younger people like he was doing with the "Broadway" album (which is one of my all time favorites), but certainly he has aged too since then and his brain now does not respond the same way to what he hears either.

After all he created all that stuff and has heard it about two million times more than anyone else.

Wait a minute--I said I like System of a Down as much as any of the old stuff. And it doesn't sound at all like '70s art rock, it's post-Metallica art-thrash that rocks like hell, then veers into beautiful haunting melody, then back again. It's high energy, high creativity--it's the ultimate in intelligent metal, IMHO.

Gabriel' new stuff sounds lifeless, depressed, lacking in the humor, fun, creativity of his old stuff. It's too bad if he thinks this is more artistically valid. It really sounds like a dull retread of the "Security"-era stuff, really. Not new--OLD.

[paul minot]

It's also possible that they're just going in a different direction because it's a natural transition for them.

I haven't heard the latest Peter Gabriel album so I don't know if it's good or not.

But I was just reflecting inwardly the other day how I'm craving to do some mellow blues something I never would have wanted to do previously.

I'm beginning to suprise myself with directions I want to take at the moment because I thought I'd natural lean towards electronica (something I still want to do) with the wealth of synthesis capabilities I now have. Strangely enough though after gathering all this equipment together to produce an electronica tour de force all I seem to want to do is write music with pianos and cellos and strings and upright basses.

What happened to me?

I guess if it can happen to me it can happen to anyone right?

And a change of direction is a funny thing. It can generate respect from listeners or contempt.

Anyway - it's not really an argument as such. Just a thought more than anything.

Caleb

The problem with the new Gabriel album is not that it's a new direction. It's the same old direction--like "Security"--except duller and slower. And less fun than even that somber album.

[opiadream]

no doubt there are many young artists who would give anything to be half as good as Gabriels pale shadow of his former self.

still,I tend to shy away from the later works of both artists
I would like to remember them they way they were in their prime

[dick]

Give an objective definition of Great Music.
If you can't do that, than everything you have written is meanignless.

[Nax]

Wait a minute--I said I like System of a Down as much as any of the old stuff. And it doesn't sound at all like '70s art rock, it's post-Metallica art-thrash that rocks like hell, then veers into beautiful haunting melody, then back again. It's high energy, high creativity--it's the ultimate in intelligent metal, IMHO.

Gabriel' new stuff sounds lifeless, depressed, lacking in the humor, fun, creativity of his old stuff. It's too bad if he thinks this is more artistically valid. It really sounds like a dull retread of the "Security"-era stuff, really. Not new--OLD.

If it sounds that way to you, then it sounds that way to you. It certainly does not mean that's the way his music is.

It's not that music has some independent objective quality out there and we either get it or not get it. It's not like music is, let's say yellow, and we as listeners can or cannot distinguish yellow.

Gabriel or anyone else may very well have gone into a studio with the intent of making a commercial album so he can finance his next villa - I don't know the specifics and I have not heard his last album.

My point is that tastes change mainly because our brain changes.

Now I don't mean to start any argument on this issue, but just to make a point, any metal is crap-o-la of the worst kind (ok, let's say 1% of it isn't completely worthless) so when you say that System of a Down is "high creativity" then here is some more proof that this stuff is highly subjective and therefore it's not that Gabriel's music is or is not of some predetermined quality -- it's only what your brain decides to respond to for various reasons and label it accordingly.

[Voidoid Surrealist]

Now I don't mean to start any argument on this issue, but just to make a point, any metal is crap-o-la of the worst kind (ok, let's say 1% of it isn't completely worthless)

"Don't mean to start any argument?"
Um...like f**k you don't! If you had just said that you don't like metal, that would be different, but currently, you're just begging for a flamewar...

[Nax]

"Don't mean to start any argument?" Um...like f**k you don't! If you had just said that you don't like metal, that would be different, but currently, you're just begging for a flamewar...

VS, sorry if I sounded too harsh. If the word "is" is what bothered you then I said in the remaining paragraph that this stuff is subjective, so if someone says for example Polynesian music is crap then you can safely assume that that person does not like Polynesian music and that was only his/her personal opinion. Don't get hung up on words too much because language is not specific - it can mean anything we want to.

I do listen to metal... sometimes... like, never.

To Paul Minot: See?

[paul minot]

Wait a minute--I said I like System of a Down as much as any of the old stuff. And it doesn't sound at all like '70s art rock, it's post-Metallica art-thrash that rocks like hell, then veers into beautiful haunting melody, then back again. It's high energy, high creativity--it's the ultimate in intelligent metal, IMHO.

Gabriel' new stuff sounds lifeless, depressed, lacking in the humor, fun, creativity of his old stuff. It's too bad if he thinks this is more artistically valid. It really sounds like a dull retread of the "Security"-era stuff, really. Not new--OLD.

If it sounds that way to you, then it sounds that way to you. It certainly does not mean that's the way his music is.

It's not that music has some independent objective quality out there and we either get it or not get it. It's not like music is, let's say yellow, and we as listeners can or cannot distinguish yellow.

Gabriel or anyone else may very well have gone into a studio with the intent of making a commercial album so he can finance his next villa - I don't know the specifics and I have not heard his last album.

My point is that tastes change mainly because our brain changes.

Now I don't mean to start any argument on this issue, but just to make a point, any metal is crap-o-la of the worst kind (ok, let's say 1% of it isn't completely worthless) so when you say that System of a Down is "high creativity" then here is some more proof that this stuff is highly subjective and therefore it's not that Gabriel's music is or is not of some predetermined quality -- it's only what your brain decides to respond to for various reasons and label it accordingly.

What makes metal crapola--your opinion??! What makes SOAD great metal is that it isn't exactly metal--it does all the things that metal is supposed to do (i.e. thrash) but it's spiritual, emotionally complex, lyrically poetic, extremely beautiful at times. And the guys do not appear to be posers. Sure my opinion is subjective, you wanker--I'm 49 years old, I know that shit. But your argument pressupposes that anybody's opinion is not even worth considering--not even yours! I wouldn't say that's true. Don't you really love anything?!

I love middle period Roxy Music. I love Gabriel-era Genesis. In my opinion, some stuff sucks, and some doesn't. I would really rather hear what you think is good or bad, than believe that there is no good or bad. Hemingway is great. Jacqueline Susann isn't--well maybe in a sordid way she is. Art, beauty, meaning...matters.