Bitwig VS Ableton

[machinesworking]

Unfortunately Ableton removed the ability to use Aliases for the VST which was a great way to have unlimited collections.

Did you try Symbolic Links?

[aMUSEd]

Unfortunately Ableton removed the ability to use Aliases for the VST which was a great way to have unlimited collections.

Did you try Symbolic Links?

Yeah that should work - I switched from Aliases to Symlinks many years ago - works not just not just for Ableton but all my VST2 hosts

[Trancit]

I don't know... maybe you have too many plugins?

Are 200 3rd party plugins too many??

When I open the popup browser to add FX, it defaults to my collection of most used FX. That list is all visible at once. No clicking or scrolling.

When I open the popup browser to add Note FX, it defaults to my collection of most used Note FX. That list is smaller than the FX list.

For Instruments, it defaults to my most used instruments. That list also just fits without scrolling.

And this is where the story begins...

Say you create an Instrument track... when you now add to an empty instrument track... what does it give you ... Instruments or Note FX?? What if you need the other?? Or do you let it show both?? Then the list gets already longer... the clicking and scrolling beginns...

If you chose to see just Instruments when adding to an empty Instrument track you already need to switch filters when you this time want to load a note FX first... and vice versa...

This all sounds perhaps a tad too negative but I am trying just to be critical...
This doesn´t mean nothing works and everything would be sh*t... I just struggle with parts like these...

I like to have the choice...so I don´t like to restrict myself too much by just letting Bitwig show me my absolute favourites just because the list must fit into the visible space...this I find is the wrong approach...
A software has to serve me... not I have to please the software... and if I have to restrict myself just to make things easier and otherwise the software makes my life harder than something is wrong with the software... can anybody follow me???

[mtelesha]

Bitwig doesn't give you the option to see your most used it is very clear what is your favorite and then all the other plugins just follow.

Personally I am looking forward to the promise of CLAP and projects. So you should be able to save a default project and everything you want is saved in the project, the plugin, the settings inside the plugin and any samplers used. Should make it really easy to just have your basic songs ready to go with the plugins exactly like you want them and your drum pads all set.

[liquidsound]

Unfortunately Ableton removed the ability to use Aliases for the VST which was a great way to have unlimited collections.

Did you try Symbolic Links?

For someone like me, changing computer structure extremely often... bad idea.
I hope Ableton will make Aliases available again even though they were never officially supported.

I'm still using Live 10 on my Surface Pro for drafting and then move to the Live 11 on the iMac for the rest.
So yes, I'm still using the Aliases for the initial work at least.

[pdxindy]

And this is where the story begins...

...

I like to have the choice...so I don´t like to restrict myself too much by just letting Bitwig show me my absolute favourites just because the list must fit into the visible space...this I find is the wrong approach...
A software has to serve me... not I have to please the software...

Insisting that the software serve you the way you want and refusing to adjust to how it functions insures an unhappy experience. Seems like every DAW will end up being an unhappy experience that way.

For me, the Bitwig browser works great. It feels effortless and without inertia to get the device I want on the track in mere seconds. I have no trouble adjusting how I do things to make it fast and flow well. To me, that is not pleasing the software, that is pleasing myself.

[apoclypse]

Yeh, that how I have it set up (Chill Computer Guy did a good video on it, see below)

Thanks for posting that, that helped me. I didn't know about "Remember selected filters".

What it didn't cover are "Smart Collections". This is what for example u-he also has in their preset browser and its a really powerful feature. There it's also explained well, how you can construct your own "queries" / "filters. However, in Bitwig this feature seems buggy to me. I tried a few times, but my smart collections always end up empty after using them one or two times...

In general, I think the u-he preset browser has a few things that Bitwigs browser could learn from.

For example, a filter in u-he can look like: "#Bass:* #Favourite 2 #Favourite 3 #Favourite 4". Which selects all presets within the Bass category (including subcategories) but reduces it only to those which are marked as favorites of certain degrees.

Anyone using this and some tips how to use it correctly?

Bitwig could make queries a bit easier to learn but basically the way you use Smart Collections is that you look for what you want in search and build a collection out of that

For example if you want to look at all your basses the are marked as Favorites select the Favorites Collection and then open Categories click on Bass and then right click on the results and create a new Smart Collection. It will create a Smart Collection with something like "bass in_collection=Favorites" as the query. So basically you can just use the browser UI to filter and then right-click the search bar to turn it into a Smart Collection. No real need to learn arcane queries.

[apoclypse]

I don't know... maybe you have too many plugins?

Are 200 3rd party plugins too many??

When I open the popup browser to add FX, it defaults to my collection of most used FX. That list is all visible at once. No clicking or scrolling.

When I open the popup browser to add Note FX, it defaults to my collection of most used Note FX. That list is smaller than the FX list.

For Instruments, it defaults to my most used instruments. That list also just fits without scrolling.

And this is where the story begins...

Say you create an Instrument track... when you now add to an empty instrument track... what does it give you ... Instruments or Note FX?? What if you need the other?? Or do you let it show both?? Then the list gets already longer... the clicking and scrolling beginns...

If you chose to see just Instruments when adding to an empty Instrument track you already need to switch filters when you this time want to load a note FX first... and vice versa...

This all sounds perhaps a tad too negative but I am trying just to be critical...
This doesn´t mean nothing works and everything would be sh*t... I just struggle with parts like these...

I like to have the choice...so I don´t like to restrict myself too much by just letting Bitwig show me my absolute favourites just because the list must fit into the visible space...this I find is the wrong approach...
A software has to serve me... not I have to please the software... and if I have to restrict myself just to make things easier and otherwise the software makes my life harder than something is wrong with the software... can anybody follow me???

I'm not saying Bitwig couldn't be more user friendly but sometimes your comments comes across as having a lack of understanding of what the developers are actually trying to do so you demand they change it to work how you perceive it should.

Anywho your example here doesn't make sense imo. In most DAWs there is more of a separation of Note FX vs Instrument effects because they are usually two different things in the UI (in-terms of how you add them). Both Ableton and Bitwig don't have that since both can live in the same space. So either way you are dealing with two separate tasks (add an instrument, then add a note effect in a different menu, or vice versa).

Either way Bitwig's browser knows context so if you add an instrument first, and click the + before the instrument it will only show you note effect since it assumes you want to add a midi effect before your instruments. I set my filter for empty tracks to only show instruments since 9/10 I'm adding an instrument before I add a note effects. You can also enable Device Type (and Categories) in the right Browser if you only want to see instruments and not just a long list of all devices. You can combine those filters BTW. So you want to see your favorite, note effects, instruments, etc in a specific category you can do that.

[Trancit]

I'm not saying Bitwig couldn't be more user friendly but sometimes your comments comes across as having a lack of understanding of what the developers are actually trying to do so you demand they change it to work how you perceive it should.
...

I don´t know... but when it comes to features and ergonomics this is what I mean:
.

Bitwig.jpg

.

In Bitwig the distances between the different sections you need to use with the mouse (tab and Shift+tab isn´t an option for me either as it means always hopping through all sections... that takes even longer) are huge and clearly make a huge difference...

- And at the latest when you make use of the device type filtering and you have inserted a Midi VST and want to insert an instrument afterwards you have to completely go over to the device type filter section because Bitwig now automatically switches over to "Audio FX" because it thinks you got the instrument already...

- Another highlight of Bitwig (and Ableton) is the absolutely nonsense on a 4k system that you have to enable the "Plugin Interface Scaling" to make use out of the native scaling most plugins have but then you have to rightclick every single plugin to turn it off again...
Are you kidding me???
Can somebody explain me what a developer might think by creating a feature like this??

- for me the offered rightclick options are not very interesting... simply poor design...

- and as already said a few times... if you don´t make big use out of the filters to avoid having to make long distance movements with your mouse you end up with a small very long list with endless scrolling and little general overview...

A plugin browser which makes sense to me and is imho much more ergonomic is as already said the one of Reaper:

Reaper.jpg

.

- smallest mouse movement possible...
- huge and resizeable list for the plugins
- easy renaming
- offered rightclick options which one can actually use in a production workflow
- plugins scaling automatically and you have just to define the ones which shall be scaled by the system
- easy hiding of plugins from the main list without the need to create seperate filters/collections
- respects your own folder system
- doesn´t differentiate between different plugin formats means merges the folder system for Clap/VST3/VST if setup similar...but can filter it if you like it similar to Bitwig
- perfect general overview and less clutter
- keyboard shortcuts for inserting plugins
- rightclicking the FX knob on a track gives you a second view without having the need to use any kilometers away side browser:

Reaper 2.jpg

.
This is ergonomic imho (and it´s not just Reaper... S1, Cubase act more or less the same...)

I know... now there will the argumentation change into:
"If you don´t like Bitwig... why don´t you just use Reaper/S1/Cubase..."
"It seems Bitwig is not for you!"
...blablabla... but of course... there are other things than plugin browsing and if I wouldn´t be interested in other goodies of Bitwig I wouldn´t argue and claim...

But who knows probably is really just me...
Probably is absolutely fine to see in the plugins list
"HoRNetLUMeterMK2" instead of my prefered
"Hornet LU" or "Hornet LU Meter"
or
"Black Box Analog Design HG-2" instead of my prefered
"Black Box HG2"
or clutter your list with
"Vocal Bender mono" ..."Vocal Bender mono/stereo" ... "Vocal Bender stereo"
instead of my prefered single entry
"Waves Vocal Bender"
for the stereo version as Bitwig doesn´t have mono tracks anyway (neither does Reaper) and putting the brand in front that all Waves plugins appear together in the list and are not spreaded all over the place and I have to use filters to narrow it down...

Perhaps this is all too nitpicky but if so what is all this theming nonsense people keep asking for in any DAW and plugin about...
Is this not the same kind of "nitpickyness" (does this word exists??)
Does it really matter if a meter is light blue instead of yellow??

Anyway... this discussion is senseless as the most part of Bitwig´s browser will most likely never change... but it was nice to talk about...

[SLiC]

In Bitwig the distances between the different sections you need to use with the mouse (tab and Shift+tab isn´t an option for me either as it means always hopping through all sections... that takes even longer) are huge and clearly make a huge difference...

Did you watch the video I posted on how to use the browser? You can hide almost all of the columns (author, type etc) and make it as small and functional as you like, its fully customisable.

[SLiC]

Bitwig sometimes copy things from Ableton even if it's stupid!
I hate it when they mix synths with effects for 3rd party. Why?
Bitwig has two browsers. The one on the right is almost useless, while using tags is overcomplicates things with not elegant pop up browser.
I prefer Live's colours folders as I can put my favourite synths in one colour and the effects in another. Still not ideal but more elegant solution than messy Bitwig browser.

I like when saving presets in native devices. There is a complete organized folder/sub-foldrrs with the devices, so no browsing needed.

Anyway, those are the less important reasons that made me choose Live over Bitwig. There are more important ones like the clearer policy and pricing. Also, the contents are better. The workflow and environment are also quicker and more spacious.
The most important question is whom you trust more. In my case I trust Ableton more than any other DAW company in both ethical and technical aspects.

I don't understand this, its an intelligent browser- if you open an instrument track it just shows instruments, if you open an audio track it just shows fx etc. Ableton doesn't even split FX and Instruments- they are all just shown under vendor which I agree is dumb, in the Bitwig Browser you just click instrument, FX or midi Fx to see just those or you can set it as defaults..it also autohides duplicates ort VST 3 over VST 2 etc- so no clutter.

Also, you can have 'unlimited' collections (favourite folders) not just seven (talk about a stupid limitation!) and smart collections will automatically generate and even update these favourite folders...its light years ahead of Ableton in this respect.

Also Bitwig Native devices have their own pre-set folder on the device- One Click!

[Trancit]

In Bitwig the distances between the different sections you need to use with the mouse (tab and Shift+tab isn´t an option for me either as it means always hopping through all sections... that takes even longer) are huge and clearly make a huge difference...

Did you watch the video I posted on how to use the browser? You can hide almost all of the columns (author, type etc) and make it as small and functional as you like, its fully customisable.

I know... but here the difference would be for me:
I need the filters sometimes especially because of having just one long list so because of Bitwigs fixed browser architecture I have no other choice than going the long ways...
This is what I mean in Reaper... the filters I need I have there too but much closer without this tons of space in between...

Anyway... I have to live with that somehow...

[Trancit]

I don't understand this, its an intelligent browser- if you open an instrument track it just shows instruments, if you open an audio track it just shows fx etc. Ableton doesn't even split FX and Instruments- they are all just shown under vendor which I agree is dumb, in the Bitwig Browser you just click instrument, FX or midi Fx to see just those or you can set it as defaults..it also autohides duplicates ort VST 3 over VST 2 etc- so no clutter.
...

After all that negative stuff I need to say something positive about Bitwig:
The browsers of Bitwig are miles ahead of Ableton´s... that´s for sure...
I never liked Ableton´s browser...

[SLiC]

In Bitwig the distances between the different sections you need to use with the mouse (tab and Shift+tab isn´t an option for me either as it means always hopping through all sections... that takes even longer) are huge and clearly make a huge difference...

Did you watch the video I posted on how to use the browser? You can hide almost all of the columns (author, type etc) and make it as small and functional as you like, its fully customisable.

I know... but here the difference would be for me:
I need the filters sometimes especially because of having just one long list so because of Bitwigs fixed browser architecture I have no other choice than going the long ways...
This is what I mean in Reaper... the filters I need I have there too but much closer without this tons of space in between...

Anyway... I have to live with that somehow...

I don't have one long list, I have it set up like this- same as folders per vendor.,

[Trancit]

I don't have one long list, I have it set up like this- same as folders per vendor.,
...

You would have... if you click on "Any creator"!

This workaround serves you nothing without a big click/scroll parade when you just want to see all in one go without having a vendor preselected...
This is what I meant with the Reaper example before...

If you want NOT to go the preselection path when having a general browsing around you end up with a cluttered endless long list with tons of scrolling and basically no general overview in Bitwig... period...

There is no way around as Bitwig settles on this small lists principle no matter how you try to cheat...

Not a showstopper but as I said: (for me) enjoyable and flexible/ergonomic is something else...