Why do establised geniuses like Gabriel and Ferry suck now?

[Nax]

What makes metal crapola--your opinion??!

No. Let me repeat the same point I was trying to make... metal is nothing on its own. Music is nothing on its own. It does not have value or qualities on its own.

But your argument presupposes that any body's opinion is not even worth considering--not even yours! I wouldn't say that's true. Don't you really love anything?

Of course I do but all opinions are 100% subjective. If I think something is great then that thing, piece, style, artist, etc, is not great because I think so, and more importantly it's not great because anyone else may think so either.

Hemingway is great. Jacqueline Susann isn't--well maybe in a sordid way she is. Art, beauty, meaning...matters.

Hemingway is Hemingway. It is you, me and possibly many more that we choose to apply the label to him. His work on its own is neutral - it does not have quality content.

The fact that you can pretty much bet that someone will eventually pick some things out of his/her environment and call them "great" is a completely different issue.

I don't doubt that you may like something (or me or whoever). I'm saying that the fact that you like something does not mean that that something has some objective value that you were capable of recognizing.

[munchkin]

I too think Gabriel hasn't touched the heights he achieved with Genesis and there in lies the clue I think. Genesis were more than just Gabriel's backing band just as Roxy Music were more than just Ferry.

No offence to Peruvian pan-pipe players but perhaps Gabriel could choose his collaborators more wisely. As for Ferry - get rid of that dinner jacket and phone old Eno mate.

[simesf]

Give an objective definition of Great Music.
If you can't do that, than everything you have written is meanignless.

Definition of Great Music - That which is recognised to be so.

Any abstract (Great Music, Fine Art, Beauty, Love etc.) can't be defined. That's why it's an abstract. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If you sincerely believe otherwise then I suggest you spend the rest of your days listening to nothing but old boy/girl band music. After all, it can't be shit because there is no objective definition of what makes Shit Music and it's cheaper than just about anything else out there. So if it's as good as anyhing else music wise but it's cheaper then it must be better?

I'll stick my neck out. Beethoven made Great Music. Poison didn't.

simesf

[kevink]

Most people don't even have one decent album in them, so it strikes me as being unfair to criticise someone for only having had a few.

With regards to Ferry and Gabirel, both of whom I was very fond of when I was a kid (I was the only kid on the block to have bought Roxy Music's first album the month it was released, based on the fact that it was roundly denounced as being "hideously overproduced by Pete Sinfield" and having a quality like "the shine on rotten piece of meat" by a music critic who I considered to be consistently wrong), both of them were really at their best when they were surrounded by, and presumbly challenged by, other strong musical personalities. In the case of Gabriel, it was above all Phil Collins, but also Rutherford and Hackett. In the case of Ferry, it was above all Brian Eno, but also Phil Manzanera.

Gabriel's first couple of solo albums benefitted from the influences of Bob Ezrin and Robert Fripp. When Gabriel took fuller artistic control, we no longer heard gorgeous melodic themes like "Solsbury Hill" or "White Shadow" (or "Guaranteed Eternal Sanctuary Man" or "Back in NYC" with Genesis). The lyrical concepts continued to develop in interesting ways up through "Security", but for me, PG's been going downhill since 1978.

Mind you, while I was a fan of the music, I saw PG in concert quite a few times, and never much liked his attitude. The first gig I saw was Genesis doing "Lamb Lies Down" in Columbus Ohio, the night of a massive blizzard in the American Midwest. My buddy and I risked our lives on the roads to get there, which was more than most were willing to do, and the hall was far from full. Genesis cranked through "Lamb" pretty mechanically and unconvincingly. It seemed distinctly under-rehearsed. Then they did "Watcher of the Skies" to close, and *that* they had dead-on, and got what crowd was there up on their feet. At which point, Gabriel said "Thank you. Both of you." and walked away. (The other thing I remeber about that show was that Phil Collins had a *much* better singing voice than PG, even in 1975.)

Years later, in San Francisco, PG's band was playing the SF Civic Auditorium. It was a Bill Graham concert, and the Graham organization had decided that they didn't want anyone being down on the floor who hadn't paid a premium for their ticket. They were systematically keeping people in their seats and away from the stage, by force if necessary. This got in the way of giving Gabriel the adulation he craved, and toward the end of the show he launched into a tirade against the audience, saying "we don't much like playing for a bunch of self-abusing corpses" (those were pretty much his exact words). I continued buying his records and seeing his tours, but I still thought he was an asshole.

[Amberience]

Give an objective definition of Great Music.
If you can't do that, than everything you have written is meaningless.

And thats the point isn't it. Everything we do, is in fact meaningless. Our music, our kids, our jobs, our cars, our computers... none of it matters...

Unless we say it matters...

And even then, that is only a statement that it matters to YOU... it doesn't automatically mean it will matter to other people.

Your kids may matter to you, but your wife might think differently.. although there is a general convetional opinion that she wont think anymore differently.

Our music doesn't come with all our thoughts and experiences, it comes as a subjective piece of artwork (hopefully) so trying to ask anyone to understand it in exactly the same way as the artist is futile - it can't be done.

Music is subjective, as are many parts of our lives. Everything is subjective in some form or way.

[Timfonie]

In arts, mathematics and physics, creativity usually peaks at rather young age. Maybe it's not what we like to hear but it's a fact.

This doesn't mean people can't be creative later in life. Creativity just occurs less frequently and less extremely.
It's related to inner drive and energy, mental flexibility and to the first time we (more or less) master a particular field in which to excel.

In general the earlier one shows creativity the higher one's peak will be.

[jens]

I love the recent kvr fashion of starting a thread by making a ridiculous assumption and asking in the thread title 'why it is so' while presenting the assumption as if it was a fact.

'why is 2+2=5 nowadays?'

'why is read a greeener colour than blue?'


To be on topic:

My opinion is that 'up' is the best work PG has ever delivered.

This is my opinion.

You are allowed to think otherwise.
THB I don't give a shit about it.

But please don't present your opinion as if it was a given fact.

[Bassballjg]

I love the recent kvr fashion of starting a thread by making a ridiculous assumption and asking in the thread title 'why it is so' while presenting the assumption as if it was a fact.

'why is 2+2=5 nowadays?'

'why is read a greeener colour than blue?'


To be on topic:

My opinion is that 'up' is the best work PG has ever delivered.

This is my opinion.

You are allowed to think otherwise.
THB I don't give a shit about it.

But please don't present your opinion as if it was a given fact.

I concur.

[kevink]

Give an objective definition of Great Music.
If you can't do that, than everything you have written is meanignless.

Great Music is music that comminicates to and emotionally moves people, irrespective of their cultural background or their interest in music per se.

Of course, everything I say could still be meaningless.

[Hypertone]

Every creative person has a "prime". Some of them die before it's over. A few realize that their time has passed and move on. The rest refuse to quit.

[jens]

thanks for this words of wisdom...

[BONES]

At which point, Gabriel said "Thank you. Both of you."

Dirty c**t! That's my line.

Anyway, back on topic, I never liked either of 'em. As far as I'm concerned they were always shite so it hardly surprises me that the're shite now.

OTOH, look at acts like Killing Joke and Wire - they only do it when it feels right. As a result we don't get a lot of output from them these days but when we do it is always worth the wait. Even the Stranglers' new album is very good, although there has been a lot of shite in between their halcyon days and it.

[jens]

I never liked either of 'em.

surprise, surprise...

[paul minot]

I love the recent kvr fashion of starting a thread by making a ridiculous assumption and asking in the thread title 'why it is so' while presenting the assumption as if it was a fact.

'why is 2+2=5 nowadays?'

'why is read a greeener colour than blue?'


To be on topic:

My opinion is that 'up' is the best work PG has ever delivered.

This is my opinion.

You are allowed to think otherwise.
THB I don't give a shit about it.

But please don't present your opinion as if it was a given fact.

I concur.

Why not? Do I really have to pussyfoot around here because I might offend somebody here? It's just my opinion, OK--that's a given, isn't it, since we have clearly established here that EVERYTHING is subjective.

Here's an opinion for you. Anybody that can't accept the fact that I KNOW that this whole thread is based on my OPINION, but feels that I need to qualify it as such in order not to offend the other participants here, is a pussy

Jeez.

[xoxos]

commercial rockstars... are pretentious and suck?? are you sure you've got your facts straight??