What Makes a Good Song?

[BONES]

power, attitude and driving rhythm, ill take those odds, and totally expect to be called an idiot and that it's shit.

There's a bit of that in the music but absolutely none in her vocal. It's like they've taken the vocal from a different song and stuck it over that piece of music, just because they are the same tempo and key. It's kind of the opposite of AggroTech, where they do Death Metal vocals over happy trance music. It's weird.

her vocal style and range, there is no one else you might mistake for her once she opens her mouth.

A child singing a nursery rhyme, perhaps? I can't stand her voice, it ruins a lot of otherwise decent, interesting music for me.

[Michael L]

I think it helps your songwriting to analyse what it is you like and don't like about the music you listen to but it isn't something I've ever really put into words before.

well, here is a thought experiment:
- Aretha Franklin's 'Chain of Fools' is just one chord.
- so is Bo Diddley's 'Bo Diddley' & Creedence's 'Keep on Chooglin' & Nilsson's 'Coconut'
how can you describe What Makes any one of them a Good Song?
is it the melody ... or something else?

Well, do you want to try this "thought experiment" I posted above?

[ I realise it's the weekend & you're on the boat with a chamber pot so maybe not the best time }

[BONES]

The problem is that, to me, none of them are good songs. Honestly, if you are going to mention Coconut, you may as well add Shaddup You Face, which is just as stupid but was a much bigger hit.

[Michael L]

Anyway, I think it helps your songwriting to analyse what it is you like and don't like about the music you listen to but it isn't something I've ever really put into words.

Try it some day

[niterateaudio]

I listen to a lot of music and wonder why anyone bothers to make it, much less feels the need to share it with the world. This particularly struck me listening to the Vince Clarke & Martin Gore album from 2012. Those guys can do anything they feel like, so why choose to do minimalist, ancient-sounding techno? It struck me as a strange choice.

So, anyway, for me the most important thing a good song needs is power. Power is a combination of energy and attitude. Energy is the most important factor but it's not usually enough on it's own. e.g. The Pointer Sisters' hits all have bags of energy, so I don't hate them, but I don't exactly like them, either. OTOH, Icona Pop's I Love it has both energy and attitude and I quite like it.

Energy is easy with fast songs but much harder with slower material, where the energy needs to come from tension in the music or some kind of build-up and release. My favourite songs all have slow verses and massive choruses at double-tempo. Strangely, though, I've never written a song like that. Dunno why.

Attitude is harder to define. e.g. I don't like Heavy Metal at all, yet it mostly wreaks of attitude. I think maybe I find it hard to take seriously. The other thing is that it tends towards "dark" and "evil", where "anger" works better for me. Minor keys help, too, but attitude is the hardest aspect for me to nail down. I know it when I hear it but that's about it, really.

Good songs also need vocals to anchor my interest. Instrumental music can't generally hold my attention for more than a minute or so. I keep waiting for the song to start, especially with a lot of different Tarnce styles, and lose interest when it doesn't.

Rhythm matters, melody doesn't. Again, my favourite songs all have strong, driving rhythms which, of course, is where the energy usually comes from. OTOH, whilst I enjoy a good melody as much as the next idiot, it's not something I look for.

Anyway, I think it helps your songwriting to analyse what it is you like and don't like about the music you listen to but it isn't something I've ever really put into words before.

Interesting post. I really think what makes a good song is highly depended on genre of the music. What makes a song in the folk/country genre is a totally different set of rules than what makes a good EDM banger.

I tend to feel that a good song usually has just the right mix of simplicity and complexity as it, as much as is needed, in order to get the idea of the song and artist across at the particular point in time. This is a special unique talent that I think only the truly great song makers/writers/creators posses. You mentioned Martin Gore and I would say that Depeche Mode, putting aside their huge success and longevity and touring for a moment, really can be said they are a band that knows how to make really great songs and that may be what mainly kept them afloat for all this time. They may not always be driving hits and may claim its a lot of minor key and boring.. but I think they are almost all always great songs. I am not speaking as a hard core fan of them. I am actually a much bigger fan of other acts from the early 80s era.. (Joy Division, New Order, Nick Lowe, Gram parsons . ) but I think those other artists did quite a long of misses over the years.. and none have been able to sustain the quality of song writing and song idea execution as DM have over the decades.

I am also not sure I agree about your comment on instrumental music. There is lots of all instrumental music with no lyrics or vocals that can capture my interest and attention .. classical obviously.. but also a lot of more modern ambient, chillstep, D&B and others genres.. some of the truly great all instrumental music makers that come to mind .. the late Johann Johansson, Olafur Arnalds, Max Richter.. just to name a few OTTOMH.

[counterparty]

I'd say in descending order of importance:

1) It needs to make me feel something (feel happy, feel sad, feel energised, feel like dancing, etc). If it fails at this I'm basically not going to listen to it again.

2) It needs hooks.. melodic hooks, rhythmic hooks, lyrical hooks. Just some cool bits that reappear in your head and make you think of the song when it's not playing.

3) It needs to have a good vocal melody, and if there are lyrics I want to understand what they're trying to get across. If the lyrics are just a bunch of unintelligible abstract statements etc I tend to just ignore them and listen to the vocal as an instrument.

Everything else is negotiable for me.

[BONES]

I don't worry too much about the content of the lyrics, I am more interested in the emotion of the delivery and how that contributes to the song. There's a lot of music I can't get into because the vocals don't match the music. I mentioned AggroTrch yesterday but a lot of modern rock has the same problem - big guitars and drums topped with weedy, whiny vocals. Some people might feel that the juxtaposition of the two things works but for me one always undermines the other.

[donkey tugger]

I am actually a much bigger fan of other acts from the early 80s era.. (........ Gram parsons . ) but I think those other artists did quite a long of misses over the years..

Since he died in 1973 it's possibly a tad understandable that he wasn't putting the effort in on his 80s stuff.

[highkoo]

Cool thread.
I think about people thinking about this all the time.
Music is 'a powerful thing' for a lot of people, but it is that powerful in two directions that maybe arent always connected for everyone.
Theres pure sonics, and pure 'emotion', and all the mix in between, and peoples tastes for creation and consumption get out to the edges.

[lobanov]

If a song is great I want to (and can!) sing or hum it when cooking, taking a walk etc. I like it, it arouses good emotions and feelings, it is memorable.

EDIT: I tend to relisten songs that seem great to me.

[lobanov]

I should add that emotion has to be vivid, rich and indescribable. Most of songs I love arouse such unspeakable feelings. Music exist for the sake of unspeakable feelings.

[BONES]

That works for some genres but Skinny Puppy haven't made too many sing-a-long anthems in their time, yet they have made some unbelievably goof music. I mean, can you imagine singing Testure in the shower -

In nervous convulsion, crouches infant ape
Trembling in mother's shit
Cage eyes, tearless, filled with contempt
Clinic mask experiment with life and death

OTOH, Numb's Shithammer is quite good to sing in the shower -

Shithammer burrow back
Fade to black
Shithammer burrow back
Fade to black

[niterateaudio]

I am actually a much bigger fan of other acts from the early 80s era.. (........ Gram parsons . ) but I think those other artists did quite a long of misses over the years..

Since he died in 1973 it's possibly a tad understandable that he wasn't putting the effort in on his 80s stuff.

sorry. typo.. Graham Parker.. some really good records he did. Under appreciated artist. The Jimmy Iovine produced https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Up_Escalator and Kershenbaum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Real_Macaw were up there in songwriting

[jancivil]

a thread like this becomes, practically at once, just opinions on music people like.

Then, a “memorable” (read: catchy) hook is crucial? well to me quite a lot of that kind of thing is extremely annoying, and I don’t want anything stuck in my head, if only because I have ideas that might be being interfered with. then, it’s useless clutter.
Not to mention it being not particularly good music by dint of its catchy quotient. It might be such due to incessantly repeating the annoying line. Long a tenet of the advertising industry, irritate irritate irritate.

But back to my opening thrust, a lot of songs people will mention I find no redeeming qualities whatsoever in. And who cares, either way.

“I can't say I am able to find anything worthwhile in either” isn’t “to analyse what it is you like…”, it’s just a statement of taste.
“Energy is easy with fast songs but much harder with slower material, where the energy needs to come from tension in the music or some kind of build-up and release.” This is a matter of technique and experience.

[vurt]

. It's weird.

from a certain point of view.
i can understand it not working for some people, but for me it's the things that are "wrong" so to speak, in music, that stand out for me as special.
take mark e smith of the fall, his voice is f**king awful, whiny nasal and very salford, but it works in the context of the fall, and they are like no one else!

but then you can take someone like oasis or coldplay, who on paper, the songs should be great, power and melody, attitude ... turgid shite.