How many of you are getting the Osmose?

[ThomasHelzle]

Sure, I didn't target you specifically, I just hope this doesn't lead to an endless circle in this strange industry.
It's totally absurd that every DAW and every VST internally use floating point data just to do the transfer as 7bit integers again over a pimped up, but basically serial connection from 40 years ago.

But of course we all will have to deal with that for quite a while, I don't know any MPE+ devices either and will have to see how Bitwig deals with the data - may need a specific controller script, didn't try it yet.

CLAP has the means to take us beyond Midi 1.0, but "good enough" stuff always has been the most sticky...

I also wonder if the re-establishing of analog synths and the widespread use of CV voltages has to do with them not being encumbered by the resolution and timing issues (they of course have other issues).
Maybe a second round of digital but new instruments like the Osmose will see the light.

Interesting times

Cheers,

Tom

[pdxindy]

The ERAE Touch supposedly supports Midi 2... don't even really know what that means at this point. Logic Pro has a preference for enabling Midi 2.

U-he is going to support MPE+ but who knows then that will happen.

[SteveElbows]

Bitwig probably doesnt know how to treat the MPE+ data in an appropriate way to make its advantages over normal MPE compatible with all the specifically MPE-aware features in Bitwig. Since MPE+ is backwards compatible it is likely Bitwig will do the appropriate stuff with the MPE parts of the data, but I dont think it will make good use of the extra resolution data. It probably would be possible to write a Bitwig controller script to do something with it, but the scripts will be quite complex as unlike most MPE controller scripts I doubt we'll be able to rely on the built in helper functions to consume the data appropriately. I know roughly how to turn the messages into high res values in their scripting environment, but I dont know if via scripting I can then pass them to the right bits of Bitwig in high resolution. And I presume that Bitwig itself would still need to be properly MPE+ aware in order to spit it back out again from the HW Instrument module in the right format. So I probably wont invest any time in trying to manage the high res version of the data in Bitwig for now, I'll wait till that situation is clearer.

Despite the fact I keep saying that MPE from the Osmose will still be good enough for many things, I am still interested in making use of MPE+. And so today I decided to have a look at the world of MPE modules in VCV Rack. I found one that has a Haken MPE+ mode. Unfortunately that mode was broken, I only got low and erratic voltages out of it. But source code was available, so I took a look and managed to find and fix the issue. But this means people need to compile the module from source themselves in order to be able to use it with MPE+ from the Osmose.

[ThomasHelzle]

Well, I haven't looked at MPE+, but controller scripts should be able to translate it.
Internally Bitwig is floating point and can deal with 14bit Midi, so I don't think it's impossible to write a script for it.
I'll take a look if I find some time.

Cheers,

Tom

[SteveElbows]

Well the logic of dealing with the extra MPE+ info is probably the easy bit. When you receive a CC87 message store its value. Then next time you get a channel pressure or CC74 message, use the value from the channel pressure or CC74 message as the most significant byte and use the previously stored CC87 value as the least significant byte. Then reset the stored value to 0. The ability to use this to get 21 bit pitch messages is also mentioned in the MPE+ documentation, but I havent seen this actually be used on the Osmose. I might be being sloppy with my use of the word byte since midi uses 7 bits not 8, but hopefully this doesnt spoil the explanation.

[ThomasHelzle]

Yeah, it's a bit of a pain, but basically it can be done.

[NothanUmber]

Imho the different controllers can lead to inspire different music. Like it can already be the case with a non-standard guitar tuning. It is thought provoking and invites to experiment.
I have Eigenharp, Linnstrument, a ContinuuMini and the Osmose and wouldn't say that one is a subset of the other.
And even though it is easy to start playing on the Osmose with a piano background it still takes considerable time to make full use of the new capabilities - even though the layout is the same as a piano, I think it helps to approach this with a completely different mind set when it comes to tone shaping. Imho not only the instrument needs special practicing to make it shine but essentially every single preset.

[zerocrossing]

Am I wrong in the fact that the Osmose is only adding one actual thing to a traditional keyboard? Side to side wiggle? It would seem like everything else it does could be done via software on a keyboard with polyphonic aftertouch.

Yes you are, if you leave out how it's actually working and how it feels.

I don't think there ever was a keyboard with that much range in the pressure department. It starts with the slightest touch (much more sensitive to initial pressure than my seaboard block) and then you first have the easy half of the range that you can control very subtly.
That is one zone.
After that, there is a second zone, that needs more pressure with just as much range and it can control different things.
And human fingers need resistance for fine control.

So sure, as long as you never touched one you can dismiss it outright as just another keyboard with aftertouch, but like Steve said, I think you miss something in the process.

In my view, it's not about "supporting MPE". MPE as such is a rather limited standard that is very technical with it's X, Y, Z axes. Why only have three, why are most controllers so shallow in Y, why is moving in other directions not recognised...
For instance the Launchpad Pro MK3 has poly aftertouch, but it's pressure range is so limited and shallow, you can't really do much with it.

A piano has a single axis of control and no means to do anything to the tone after it's initiated other than stop it. It's still rather highly regarded for expressive playing.
Most acoustic instruments aren't "fully MPE compatible", but each in it's own right has more expression than any fully MPE compatible controller (although I personally would put the Osmose as the closest so far). Simply because they have more subtle nuances in tone on one hand but also are more adapted to the human body.

To me, the seaboard for instance is nice in theory, but in practice my fingers hated the sticky surface until I removed it and replaced it with something else. I just did not WANT to touch it. Now I like it much more (Neoprene with a cloth surface), but it still doesn't feel really right.
The Haaken Continuum has the same surface and is much more sensitive, but I still wouldn't call it the end to all musical controllers, simply because it isn't really adapted to the human body with it's surface that doesn't give your hands any clues.

And for me personally, my EWI USB is the most sensitive controller I have, not because it's MPE - it sure isn't, can only play one note at a time, has no aftertouch at all - but because there is something magic about controlling things with your breath. Because we are human and our breath is not just air coming out of a hole. It is deeply connected to our being, our soul.
The first thing an infant does when it enters the world is breathe - it never did it before!
And your last breath is on the other end.
But a real wind instrument has so much more expression...

The same with hands. They are not just some mechanical things with five levers to actuate something.
The keys of the Osmose are amazing to touch, even if you don't play anything.
You want to touch it.
It's not the 5 millionth cheap plastic controller that the industry spits out every year.
It's not Robert Lambs wet dream of some slimy rubber stuff.
Somebody really thought a lot about what "touch" actually means, how humans actually feel and what fingers actually want to do.

So yeah, if you leave all that out, you are right, it's just double aftertouch.

It's like our neighbours daughter talking about kissing in a movie when she was 10 or 11 - she found the idea pretty disgusting. Now she's a couple of years older and seems to have seen the light

Cheers,

Tom

I don’t know the Seaboard Block, but what you’re describing is nothing like the Rise 49. My Rise responds to the gentlest touch. Feels like a dream. Smooth, but not sticky. Capable of more expression than I can even put into it. Capable of per note slides that the Osmose can’t dream of.



So, you cheaped out and bought the budget version, so you get what you pay for. Or you’re trolling because someone at Roli called your mom a name. Whatever.

[pdxindy]

So, you cheaped out and bought the budget version, so you get what you pay for. Or you’re trolling because someone at Roli called your mom a name. Whatever.

Person after person who has actually played the Osmose says it feels amazing... meanwhile, you, who have not touched one, have been spamming the Gearspace Osmose thread tearing it down and saying it aint much.

Now you are coming here and being rude and insulting to someone who is expressing their firsthand experience with both an Osmose and a Roli product.

You're the one trolling. Various people put you on ignore over on Gearspace and time for the same thing here.

[pdxindy]

Bitwig probably doesnt know how to treat the MPE+ data in an appropriate way to make its advantages over normal MPE compatible with all the specifically MPE-aware features in Bitwig. Since MPE+ is backwards compatible it is likely Bitwig will do the appropriate stuff with the MPE parts of the data, but I dont think it will make good use of the extra resolution data. It probably would be possible to write a Bitwig controller script to do something with it

I sent a feature request to Bitwig to support MPE+ for their own instruments. It would be amazing if they did! Bitwig instruments would be incredible with MPE+ and played with an Osmose!

[pdxindy]

It's totally absurd that every DAW and every VST internally use floating point data just to do the transfer as 7bit integers again over a pimped up, but basically serial connection from 40 years ago.

But of course we all will have to deal with that for quite a while, I don't know any MPE+ devices either and will have to see how Bitwig deals with the data - may need a specific controller script, didn't try it yet.

CLAP has the means to take us beyond Midi 1.0, but "good enough" stuff always has been the most sticky...

The folks at u-he have a couple Osmoses... they are super excited by them and they plan to support MPE+ in the u-he synths. That is also potentially good news for CLAP since they are closely involved with development. It would be incredible to be able to play both Bitwig's instruments and the u-he synths via MPE+ on the Osmose. Hard to imagine a more exciting scenario!!

[zerocrossing]

So, you cheaped out and bought the budget version, so you get what you pay for. Or you’re trolling because someone at Roli called your mom a name. Whatever.

Person after person who has actually played the Osmose says it feels amazing... meanwhile, you, who have not touched one, have been spamming the Gearspace Osmose thread tearing it down and saying it aint much.

Now you are coming here and being rude and insulting to someone who is expressing their firsthand experience with both an Osmose and a Roli product.

You're the one trolling. Various people put you on ignore over on Gearspace and time for the same thing here.

You’re not paying attention. Read though the thread again. All I did was point out some obvious facts and the Osmose fanboys attacked. I never said it didn’t feel amazing. I just said it wouldn’t work for me because I need the type of per note pitch control that the Osmose can’t do. Then the tolls came out of the woodwork and started saying false statements about the Rise’s lack of sensitivity. It’s completely b.s. You wouldn’t know if you tried to play it like a keyboard, which it isn’t.

[ThomasHelzle]

Wow, lot's of energy there ...

I didn't like the Rise either, but lacking an MPE controller on the market I really liked (tried the Linnstrument too for a while and also the Erae Touch at Superbooth 2021), yes, I went for the cheapest one (and actually liked the stiffer rubber a bit more than the even muddier Rise back then) and with my modification it works for me, but I still do not really connect to those more or less featureless surfaces on the one hand or the rubberwaves from Roli. Just not my thing.
Featurewise you may be "correct", otherwise I just do not feel it.

I enjoy touching things like vibrating guitar strings, since I can directly connect to the tone.
I love playing my 100 year old harmonium, very "real" that one.
I built a bamboo-cello with my partner and that too is super interesting to feel and play.
The Osmose is the closest to that direct feel I've come so far with an electronic controller/instrument - with the right presets at least.
I connect to the world with my hands so to say.

So yeah, if you like one of the other available MPE controllers, more power to you.
I don't.

Cheers,

Tom

[SLiC]

Ditto- Genuinely owned them all over the years, Osmose is the only one that does it for me (with the AERE Touch for percussion and to cover dedicated controller stuff) but we are not all the same so whatever works just use it! PS- you are also quote correct that nothing beats the guitar as the ultimate expressive instrument (well, maybe my fretless bass )

[PieBerger]

I enjoy touching things

Cheers,

Tom

Don't we all