Or maybe we all just assumed that the initial poster thought it sucks and we took the conversation up from there?jens wrote:Every one assumes that it does.
Scanning through, I see lots of people here saying that suck is all just subjective.
Why do establised geniuses like Gabriel and Ferry suck now?
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- KVRAF
- 12235 posts since 18 Aug, 2003
Scanning through, I see lots of people here saying that suck is all just subjective.
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- KVRAF
- 25035 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia
dunno... 
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- KVRAF
- 1821 posts since 5 Oct, 2003
Have not listened to Ferry in ages, but Peter Gabriel's new material definitely does not suck...
"Time makes fools of us all. Our only comfort is that greater shall come after us." Eric Temple Bell
http://thetomorrowfile.bandcamp.com/
http://thetomorrowfile.bandcamp.com/
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- Narcissistic Messiah
- 4565 posts since 8 Apr, 2002 from https://soundcloud.com/remcoh
MickGael wrote:Have not listened to Ferry in ages, but Peter Gabriel's new material definitely does not suck...
i haven`t heard is last album
i heard the one before that which i didn`t like
But if his latest album is near as good as youre song Kings i simply must buy it.
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- KVRAF
- 4908 posts since 10 Aug, 2004 from Colorado Springs
Original poster of this 4 page thread:
You must see the DVD of UP. Then re-post with an apology to Mr. Gabriel.
I'm no big Gabriel fan, but I can say that I really kick myself for not seeing UP live.
I can't think of the words to describe it - really a spectacle, but that doesn't grab like the show does. The DVD is fantastic at showing what it takes to pull of a show like UP was. Tech crew is featured in the show, not wearing 'invisible' black jumpsuits, but bright orange - they are part of the theatre of the show.
Downside up is creepy & fantastic all at the same time. It's almost as if he wrote the songs completely with the intention of them being only a part of the whole experience. With this DVD, you perhaps get to see what Mr. Gabriel visualizes while composing. Quite wonderful.
Really, please find a friend that has UP on DVD and watch it.
Prog rock, no. Prog spectacle, yes.
And you get to see Tony Levin play all kinds of weird stuff on his Ned Steinberger.
-Scott
You must see the DVD of UP. Then re-post with an apology to Mr. Gabriel.
I'm no big Gabriel fan, but I can say that I really kick myself for not seeing UP live.
I can't think of the words to describe it - really a spectacle, but that doesn't grab like the show does. The DVD is fantastic at showing what it takes to pull of a show like UP was. Tech crew is featured in the show, not wearing 'invisible' black jumpsuits, but bright orange - they are part of the theatre of the show.
Downside up is creepy & fantastic all at the same time. It's almost as if he wrote the songs completely with the intention of them being only a part of the whole experience. With this DVD, you perhaps get to see what Mr. Gabriel visualizes while composing. Quite wonderful.
Really, please find a friend that has UP on DVD and watch it.
Prog rock, no. Prog spectacle, yes.
And you get to see Tony Levin play all kinds of weird stuff on his Ned Steinberger.
-Scott
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 90 posts since 24 Apr, 2001 from Clinton, ME
I figured out what I myself miss in these artists--the sense of PLAY! When they started they were uninhibited and daring--now they're more deliberate, I beleieve at the expense of their own muse. Bowie, Dylan, Young--they're still PLAYING. That's what I like about them.
It's what I'm trying to avoid in my music. Getting old and "serious", at the expense of fun.
this is the discussion I hoped to provoke, BTW.
It's what I'm trying to avoid in my music. Getting old and "serious", at the expense of fun.
this is the discussion I hoped to provoke, BTW.
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- KVRAF
- 2874 posts since 22 Oct, 2002 from "somewhere between digital and analog"
Getting old is a bitch!
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- KVRAF
- 6496 posts since 26 Nov, 2004 from Frederick, MD
Problem is, people think "genius" refers to a permanent state of being--like it's something hard wired into your brain, a part of genetic encoding--when in fact it is a rare and fleeting moment, that point where intention, inspiration, intuition, control and abandon collide successfully. It can touch almost anyone at almost any time.
Einstein a genius? He was a really smart guy, no doubt, but his "genius" was a fleeting moment. His later days were spent rehashing old ideas and struggling to deny the encroaching "genius" of a new era in physics. He never accepted quantum mechanics as a valid model.
I believe some people have learned to tap the source of their genius throughout their careers, though none have done so consistently or continuously. And quantifying the quality of genius in any of the Arts is impossible to do, witness above, as one person's genius is another person's crap-o-la.
Take this example: Pink Floyd. What was their defining act of genius? Most would say The Dark Side of the Yadda Yadda Yadda. Others would say their Syd Barrett recordings. Many others would say they didn't even exist until (kack!) The Wall. Probably a lot of other people believe they never had one in the first place. I would say Echoes from Meddle was it, but don't listen to me (see below).
So, when speaking of musical genius we're left with nothing but opinion, and I wouldn't trust anyone's opinion--including my own. I mean, I used to actually listen to Triumvirat and get off on it. I used to think Rick Wakeman was God Almighty. At one time in my life (a LONG time ago), I thought Herb Albert was the ONLY musician in the world. Okay, out of the closet time . . . Glenn Campbell was once my hero!
Do I have just horribly poor taste? (Believe me, I was no more than 8 when Glenn Campbell graced my record player, honest!) Or did my aesthetic sensablities just change along with my aging body?
To turn Cage's version of Varese's definition of music on its ear: Music is sound heard aesthetically.
I'll add that all aesthetic experiences are dependant upon the one having, or hoping to have the experience. No piece of music is in its own self anything but waves of pressure in the air--noise. If you listen to it aesthetically, it is Art. If you don't, it's crap-o-la.
Contrary to popular belief, the Artist's job is not to evoke emotion. In fact, the Artist's job is not any of your business as a listener. It is strictly something between him or herself and their creation.
Conversally, it IS your job as a listener to find an aesthetic appreciation of what you're hearing. If you cannot, well, sucks to be you. If you can, then you and you alone stand to gain.
In conclusion, it must be pointed out that if genius itself is a fleeting moment and not a fixed quality, then musical genius is even more ephemeral, as our own assessment of accomplishment and worth can change with time, mood and circumstance.
Einstein a genius? He was a really smart guy, no doubt, but his "genius" was a fleeting moment. His later days were spent rehashing old ideas and struggling to deny the encroaching "genius" of a new era in physics. He never accepted quantum mechanics as a valid model.
I believe some people have learned to tap the source of their genius throughout their careers, though none have done so consistently or continuously. And quantifying the quality of genius in any of the Arts is impossible to do, witness above, as one person's genius is another person's crap-o-la.
Take this example: Pink Floyd. What was their defining act of genius? Most would say The Dark Side of the Yadda Yadda Yadda. Others would say their Syd Barrett recordings. Many others would say they didn't even exist until (kack!) The Wall. Probably a lot of other people believe they never had one in the first place. I would say Echoes from Meddle was it, but don't listen to me (see below).
So, when speaking of musical genius we're left with nothing but opinion, and I wouldn't trust anyone's opinion--including my own. I mean, I used to actually listen to Triumvirat and get off on it. I used to think Rick Wakeman was God Almighty. At one time in my life (a LONG time ago), I thought Herb Albert was the ONLY musician in the world. Okay, out of the closet time . . . Glenn Campbell was once my hero!
Do I have just horribly poor taste? (Believe me, I was no more than 8 when Glenn Campbell graced my record player, honest!) Or did my aesthetic sensablities just change along with my aging body?
To turn Cage's version of Varese's definition of music on its ear: Music is sound heard aesthetically.
I'll add that all aesthetic experiences are dependant upon the one having, or hoping to have the experience. No piece of music is in its own self anything but waves of pressure in the air--noise. If you listen to it aesthetically, it is Art. If you don't, it's crap-o-la.
Contrary to popular belief, the Artist's job is not to evoke emotion. In fact, the Artist's job is not any of your business as a listener. It is strictly something between him or herself and their creation.
Conversally, it IS your job as a listener to find an aesthetic appreciation of what you're hearing. If you cannot, well, sucks to be you. If you can, then you and you alone stand to gain.
In conclusion, it must be pointed out that if genius itself is a fleeting moment and not a fixed quality, then musical genius is even more ephemeral, as our own assessment of accomplishment and worth can change with time, mood and circumstance.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 90 posts since 24 Apr, 2001 from Clinton, ME
emdot, you hit the nail on the head. Some stuff is timeless, some is of the time, and everything in between. An older musician with past success is often doomed to struggle to reclaim it and risk looking foolish (like Bowie does sometime, though I admire his chutzpah)--or go some other direction that may or may not work for his audience--or give up. The interaction between an artist and his time (and his band, for that matter--as both these artists illustrate) is ephemeral. I know now that as an older artist I am becoming prejudiced in my tastes toward music that is either FUN in some broad-minded way (like System of a Down riffing, or Genesis' old classico-impressionistic melodious progging), or BEAUTIFUL (like both those artists, or ABBA, or Led Zep...) in some way. CHALLENGING is less interesting, unless it is either fun or beautiful or both, in which case it is wonderful. Otherwise I don't have the time or interest, it seems. Anyway, these are obviously subjective qualities as well, and even temporary sometimes--look at some of the dated music of the '80s in retrospect.
I'm glad some of you guys like Gabriel still, and I'll check out the DVD. But you know, I think if Gabriel could suck up his ego and get together with Genesis again, I wonder what they could come up with. I don't mean a reunion tour for God's sake, but some new music. I'd love to see it. It would likely sell a few copies as well, I'd bet....
BTW, "Digging in the Dirt" is the last truely terrific thing Gabriel did, IMHO.
I'm glad some of you guys like Gabriel still, and I'll check out the DVD. But you know, I think if Gabriel could suck up his ego and get together with Genesis again, I wonder what they could come up with. I don't mean a reunion tour for God's sake, but some new music. I'd love to see it. It would likely sell a few copies as well, I'd bet....
BTW, "Digging in the Dirt" is the last truely terrific thing Gabriel did, IMHO.
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- KVRian
- 711 posts since 16 Mar, 2002 from Mostly in planes and hotels. Terra Firma: Seattle, WA
I actually love Gabriel solo almost as much as I like Genesis and UP is a fabulous album (with the exception of "The Barry Williams Show". Frankly, Gabriels solo work is as creative to me as anything he did with Genesis, albeit in a different way, and Passion is arguably one of the best albums ever recorded.
I remember when UP was released and received tremendous word of mouth. That's how I got into Gabriel solo, since the previous album had been so so and I had therefore not even tried his earlier stuff (with the exception of Passion). On this and other boards there was so much praise for UP that I had to try it and now I am hooked on Gabriel solo.
My $.02 for what its worth.
Never really liked Roxy music so can't comment on that.
prog
I remember when UP was released and received tremendous word of mouth. That's how I got into Gabriel solo, since the previous album had been so so and I had therefore not even tried his earlier stuff (with the exception of Passion). On this and other boards there was so much praise for UP that I had to try it and now I am hooked on Gabriel solo.
My $.02 for what its worth.
Never really liked Roxy music so can't comment on that.
prog
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- KVRAF
- 25035 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia
progfusion74 wrote: On this and other boards there was so much praise for UP that I had to try it and now I am hooked on Gabriel solo.
prog
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- KVRAF
- 1821 posts since 5 Oct, 2003
OMG! I can't believe you remembered that, Emerald! How very flattering!emerald tablet wrote:MickGael wrote:Have not listened to Ferry in ages, but Peter Gabriel's new material definitely does not suck...
i haven`t heard is last album
i heard the one before that which i didn`t like
But if his latest album is near as good as youre song Kings i simply must buy it.
The high points are very good, but there is some stuff that is just good.....
"Time makes fools of us all. Our only comfort is that greater shall come after us." Eric Temple Bell
http://thetomorrowfile.bandcamp.com/
http://thetomorrowfile.bandcamp.com/
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Stupid American Pig Stupid American Pig https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=4753 - KVRAF
- 7065 posts since 25 Nov, 2002 from not sure
Great post emdot!
I think that egos play into this- they get called a musical "genius" and then think that they can release any turd song and and have universal praise and big sales. Unfortunately, sometimes this turns out to be true...
I think that egos play into this- they get called a musical "genius" and then think that they can release any turd song and and have universal praise and big sales. Unfortunately, sometimes this turns out to be true...
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- KVRAF
- 6496 posts since 26 Nov, 2004 from Frederick, MD
Thank you S_A_P.S_A_P wrote:Great post emdot!
I think that egos play into this- they get called a musical "genius" and then think that they can release any turd song and and have universal praise and big sales. Unfortunately, sometimes this turns out to be true...
You've really got to watch out for that label. I've been called a genius on several occassions and look where it's gotten me.
Well, you've never heard of me, have you? I rest my case.