Hi,
As you have seen, I have had personal issues with creating good drums. I want to mostly rely on single hits, but when I load in a loop, it seems to have some sort of 'glue' (shakers, tamb, great sounding hihats) that holds it all together. I can't seem to create those...
I don't know what im doing wrong. to hear some examples of my weak drums, check out http://tcp.caveproductions.net in the media section ... this is a huge reason why I have been in a musical rut. I just simply can't get a good drum sound out.
using: tracktion, twitch, sfz, blockfish, ambience etc.
please help :/
RonC
I need drum programming assistance (suggestions/tips).
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- KVRAF
- 12235 posts since 18 Aug, 2003
Have you read this article at Traxmusic?
Feeling with drumming
It's a good philosophical start on figuring drumming out. Search the net for drum programming tutorials, I'm sure you'll find lots of stuff, too much to put here in a thread.
Feeling with drumming
It's a good philosophical start on figuring drumming out. Search the net for drum programming tutorials, I'm sure you'll find lots of stuff, too much to put here in a thread.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 6490 posts since 14 Jun, 2004 from Rochester, NY
Ill check that article out, thanks... The thing is, I think i can figure out the snares and the bassdrums, its just everything else that simply sounds pitiful 
I will look at that article nonetheless, and hope I can find what I need.... But something I'm doing simply isnt clicking. Have any of you heard my drums in my songs? What am I doing wrong?
RonC
I will look at that article nonetheless, and hope I can find what I need.... But something I'm doing simply isnt clicking. Have any of you heard my drums in my songs? What am I doing wrong?
RonC
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- KVRist
- 159 posts since 9 Apr, 2004
these songs are downloading extermely slow for me, so I can't hear what your problem is
what exactly is your problem though? do you have a problem with the drum programming? or with the production/processing to get your drums fat? do you not have enough various samples? are the samples good? no large library of tmbs, kicks, snares, open hihats, crashes, rides, shakers, all that good stuff?
Having good samples is crucial, but that doesn't make poor samples unuseable. do your snares have too much low frequency, or not enough? is there sub in your snare sample? this will cause problems. I eq and compress each sample, then route them into a master bus. I use stereo enhancers on my hi range percussion along with reverb.
maybe the tracktion EQ isn't very good and its making your drums sound bad. (never heard it but i only use built in eq's for "background duties"
)
maybe you're not cutting a big enough hole in the mix for your kick and snare to sit in. the bigger the gap in the mix the more power in the drums. think contrast.
for drum programming...I dunno, i pretty much exclusively program my drums and i spent alot of time with it. i try to put some parts of the drums off beat, stuff like that. make sure you make use of a large dynamic range of velocity. if you have alot of quiet shakers/hihats that can still be heard, when you make em loud it'll sound great. its boring when your beats have no dynamics.
im into drum n bass/breakbeat so my drums are the focal point of my tracks, so what i tell you my be a bad idea. but i cut my mix to fit my drums, i never fit my drums into my mix. if it doesnt fit, i eq or find a different sample.
i hope some of this was of help. ( i focused on production, i can try and help with drum programming is thats your problem
oh and maybe your tools are weak. try better compressors and eq's like Kjaerhus, Voxengo, or Sonalksis. but compression isn't ALWAYS the key to a beat, and neither is eq(it all depends on the track. there are a lot of variables... ) but eq is definetely more important that compression. good compressors can be pushed farther and before sounding pumpy and what not. when i compress my drums i always make sure i fit them in the mix, not just make it louder. extermeely compressed kicks that are still quiet can punch their way through a dense mix.
i have alot more to say, but i gotta go study for my finals. i also hope im not repeating something you already know and making myself feel and look like a prick
what exactly is your problem though? do you have a problem with the drum programming? or with the production/processing to get your drums fat? do you not have enough various samples? are the samples good? no large library of tmbs, kicks, snares, open hihats, crashes, rides, shakers, all that good stuff?
Having good samples is crucial, but that doesn't make poor samples unuseable. do your snares have too much low frequency, or not enough? is there sub in your snare sample? this will cause problems. I eq and compress each sample, then route them into a master bus. I use stereo enhancers on my hi range percussion along with reverb.
maybe the tracktion EQ isn't very good and its making your drums sound bad. (never heard it but i only use built in eq's for "background duties"
)maybe you're not cutting a big enough hole in the mix for your kick and snare to sit in. the bigger the gap in the mix the more power in the drums. think contrast.
for drum programming...I dunno, i pretty much exclusively program my drums and i spent alot of time with it. i try to put some parts of the drums off beat, stuff like that. make sure you make use of a large dynamic range of velocity. if you have alot of quiet shakers/hihats that can still be heard, when you make em loud it'll sound great. its boring when your beats have no dynamics.
im into drum n bass/breakbeat so my drums are the focal point of my tracks, so what i tell you my be a bad idea. but i cut my mix to fit my drums, i never fit my drums into my mix. if it doesnt fit, i eq or find a different sample.
i hope some of this was of help. ( i focused on production, i can try and help with drum programming is thats your problem
oh and maybe your tools are weak. try better compressors and eq's like Kjaerhus, Voxengo, or Sonalksis. but compression isn't ALWAYS the key to a beat, and neither is eq(it all depends on the track. there are a lot of variables... ) but eq is definetely more important that compression. good compressors can be pushed farther and before sounding pumpy and what not. when i compress my drums i always make sure i fit them in the mix, not just make it louder. extermeely compressed kicks that are still quiet can punch their way through a dense mix.
i have alot more to say, but i gotta go study for my finals. i also hope im not repeating something you already know and making myself feel and look like a prick
Last edited by nibbzious on Tue Dec 14, 2004 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
hi
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- KVRian
- 581 posts since 27 Mar, 2002 from Sweden
Nice tunes.
Listening to your first two songs I cant hear any particular weak point in your programming. They sound personal.
Maybe you need to read some mixing tutorials??
Good tips by the others, PM me if you still need help with programming and perhaps I can be at help..
Listening to your first two songs I cant hear any particular weak point in your programming. They sound personal.
Maybe you need to read some mixing tutorials??
Good tips by the others, PM me if you still need help with programming and perhaps I can be at help..
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 6490 posts since 14 Jun, 2004 from Rochester, NY
well mostly im doing my recording and composing with tracktion then importing each wav down to adobe audition for mastering...
I really dont know im sorry about the slow speed so try to get the lofi mp3s, i have a pretty bad slow host. I feel like i can write songs that satisfy at least myself... its just I cant satisfy on drums. even using NSminikit
RonC
I really dont know im sorry about the slow speed so try to get the lofi mp3s, i have a pretty bad slow host. I feel like i can write songs that satisfy at least myself... its just I cant satisfy on drums. even using NSminikit
RonC
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Stupid American Pig Stupid American Pig https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=4753 - KVRAF
- 7065 posts since 25 Nov, 2002 from not sure
IMHO, "real" sounding drums come from the natural dynamics/shuffle differences that real drummers use. Single drum hits just wont cut it either, as drums change their timbre at different velocities. I would suggest you "play" your drums on a midi keyboard and use quantizing as necessary using a good multi velocity sampled drum kit.
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- KVRian
- 581 posts since 15 Dec, 2003 from Hangin' out with my 5 year old
Ron -
1) Music Box is one of the best tracks I have heard on KVR. Damn well done, the only faults I could find was that I didn't like the sounds in the breakdown @ 3:55 and the guitar at then end didn't blend well. Other than that -- great song.
2) Reaching -- another good track, but one that does need some work. Again the breakdowns are sometimes abrupt and not fluid.
As far as your drum programming goes, I don't see any major problems -- I think you are being overly critical. Your sounds could use a little tweaking (they're usually too dry, esp the snare on music box), but that's all.
In any event, I'd caution you not to overwhelm your songwriting (which is very good) with drums. The sparse drums in Music Box are nearly perfect -- just tweak the sounds a bit.
1) Music Box is one of the best tracks I have heard on KVR. Damn well done, the only faults I could find was that I didn't like the sounds in the breakdown @ 3:55 and the guitar at then end didn't blend well. Other than that -- great song.
2) Reaching -- another good track, but one that does need some work. Again the breakdowns are sometimes abrupt and not fluid.
As far as your drum programming goes, I don't see any major problems -- I think you are being overly critical. Your sounds could use a little tweaking (they're usually too dry, esp the snare on music box), but that's all.
In any event, I'd caution you not to overwhelm your songwriting (which is very good) with drums. The sparse drums in Music Box are nearly perfect -- just tweak the sounds a bit.
And all life's fears
Can invade my ears
I can handle it
Can invade my ears
I can handle it
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- KVRAF
- 13444 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
Some repeatage from the older thread:
[from earlier thread]
Basically it's all up to two things:
- Timing
- Dynamics
eventually hand in hand with your selection of sounds.
Simple example: You want some basic pattern, mostly using a hihat, establishing a 16th note groove.
Now, if you were programming for a 70s disco tune you would eventually just programm some 16th note hats, eventually doing a few accents here and there.
Not so with any contemporary 16th grooves.
Instead of just playing 16ths on their hats, drummers usually (well, at least often) alternate between hihats on the 8ths and ghost snare strokes on the offbeat 16ths. Those need to be VERY low in volume, just so that you can hear or rather "feel" them.
In addition, for a start, try to accent, say, the 8ths offbeats on the hat (or every third hat beat, whatever suits your taste).
Then, delete one or the other 16th off snare ghost note and/or slightly raise the volume of one or the other.
Then, take the complete pattern and eventually add a *very* slight shuffle. Or shift one or the other note manually. But those tweakings aren't all THAT important, dynamics is what it's all about!
OK, when done, add a simple kick track and a simple snare track. For now, try to keep them all on separate tracks (hihat/ghostsnare, kick, snare).
Put the kick on beats 1+3, snare on 2+4. Eventually add the occasional kick on some 8th note before or after 1+3, whatever suits your groove.
Now, fool with some track delay for the kick and snare tracks. Try to bring the snare track a bit behind the beat, just so múch that you start to feel the "laidback-ness" of it.
Then, eventually try to bring the kick in front, so you feel the "pressy-ness" of it.
Experiment with all sorts of combinations while keeping the hat/ghostsnare track straight.
[/from earlier thread]
In addition, I sometimes like using some natural sounds played by myself in addition. Shakers are perfect for that, as you can usually record them by yourself.
I made a really quick mockup of the method described.
2 bars of only the basic hat/ghostsnare pattern.
2 bars along with kick and snare.
4 bars along with kick and snare, doing the odd variation of the hat/ghost pattern.
4 bars with an additional shaker.
Some bars putting the thing in some (admittedly lousy because quickly done) context.
Please note: A) this is all done using REALLY lousy samples, no velocity switches, no nothing, noisy stuff too (I thought it'd best be described with the most average samples available) and B) this is programmed rather than recorded. Usually I would record a lot of things manually (especially kick and snare) to give it some more dynamics.
Yet, I think in context it's working quite well. Forgive my lousy backing.
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/Drums.mp3
Btw, I allready told you that "Music Box" is a kickass track long time ago. Doesn't require any more modern drums IMO. They are fine as lush as they sound. And, in opposite to SecondSkin I wouldn't add more "wetness" to them either.
[from earlier thread]
Basically it's all up to two things:
- Timing
- Dynamics
eventually hand in hand with your selection of sounds.
Simple example: You want some basic pattern, mostly using a hihat, establishing a 16th note groove.
Now, if you were programming for a 70s disco tune you would eventually just programm some 16th note hats, eventually doing a few accents here and there.
Not so with any contemporary 16th grooves.
Instead of just playing 16ths on their hats, drummers usually (well, at least often) alternate between hihats on the 8ths and ghost snare strokes on the offbeat 16ths. Those need to be VERY low in volume, just so that you can hear or rather "feel" them.
In addition, for a start, try to accent, say, the 8ths offbeats on the hat (or every third hat beat, whatever suits your taste).
Then, delete one or the other 16th off snare ghost note and/or slightly raise the volume of one or the other.
Then, take the complete pattern and eventually add a *very* slight shuffle. Or shift one or the other note manually. But those tweakings aren't all THAT important, dynamics is what it's all about!
OK, when done, add a simple kick track and a simple snare track. For now, try to keep them all on separate tracks (hihat/ghostsnare, kick, snare).
Put the kick on beats 1+3, snare on 2+4. Eventually add the occasional kick on some 8th note before or after 1+3, whatever suits your groove.
Now, fool with some track delay for the kick and snare tracks. Try to bring the snare track a bit behind the beat, just so múch that you start to feel the "laidback-ness" of it.
Then, eventually try to bring the kick in front, so you feel the "pressy-ness" of it.
Experiment with all sorts of combinations while keeping the hat/ghostsnare track straight.
[/from earlier thread]
In addition, I sometimes like using some natural sounds played by myself in addition. Shakers are perfect for that, as you can usually record them by yourself.
I made a really quick mockup of the method described.
2 bars of only the basic hat/ghostsnare pattern.
2 bars along with kick and snare.
4 bars along with kick and snare, doing the odd variation of the hat/ghost pattern.
4 bars with an additional shaker.
Some bars putting the thing in some (admittedly lousy because quickly done) context.
Please note: A) this is all done using REALLY lousy samples, no velocity switches, no nothing, noisy stuff too (I thought it'd best be described with the most average samples available) and B) this is programmed rather than recorded. Usually I would record a lot of things manually (especially kick and snare) to give it some more dynamics.
Yet, I think in context it's working quite well. Forgive my lousy backing.
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/Drums.mp3
Btw, I allready told you that "Music Box" is a kickass track long time ago. Doesn't require any more modern drums IMO. They are fine as lush as they sound. And, in opposite to SecondSkin I wouldn't add more "wetness" to them either.
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
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- KVRist
- 114 posts since 13 Oct, 2002 from Highway 61
Very interesting piece of music. Glad I got to hear it. Reminds me of King Crimson.
I wouldnt change a thing drum wise.
Yes drums are all about dynamics and timing.
I think most people focus on creating the timing part, but fall down with the dynamics.
Simple example take line of closed hat hits, say a full measure of 16th notes. Play with all the same velocity/volume, boring.
Vary the velocity/volume to accent very 3rd or 4th beat, now you have two rhythms, more interest.
Take any of your existing drum parts, solo each part and concentrate on adding some volume/velocity uniqueness to that part. They don't have to be drastic, but I will bet you will be much happier with the end product.
For instance in Musicbox, you have a re-ocurring snare part of 3 snare hits. Try varying the dynamics of these hits, soft, soft, hard, or hard, soft, hard, etc.
I have found the most help in learning to sequence drums by getting all the midi files I can find off the net of songs I like, and then studying the drum parts.
rock on...
I wouldnt change a thing drum wise.
Yes drums are all about dynamics and timing.
I think most people focus on creating the timing part, but fall down with the dynamics.
Simple example take line of closed hat hits, say a full measure of 16th notes. Play with all the same velocity/volume, boring. Vary the velocity/volume to accent very 3rd or 4th beat, now you have two rhythms, more interest.Take any of your existing drum parts, solo each part and concentrate on adding some volume/velocity uniqueness to that part. They don't have to be drastic, but I will bet you will be much happier with the end product.
For instance in Musicbox, you have a re-ocurring snare part of 3 snare hits. Try varying the dynamics of these hits, soft, soft, hard, or hard, soft, hard, etc.
I have found the most help in learning to sequence drums by getting all the midi files I can find off the net of songs I like, and then studying the drum parts.
rock on...
--JAIDY
--addicted to VSTs --
--addicted to VSTs --
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 6490 posts since 14 Jun, 2004 from Rochester, NY
wow this is great news i am really humbed by all of your comments! This thread is going to have to have closer and more detailed look, for there are lots of people who are up to helping me! I appreciate every voice of opinion! What do you guys recommend as a freeware drum compressor? I want pumpy sounds, I don't really feel it when I use blockfish... Isnt there another pumpy compressor made by that fish guy?
Also how do you humanize your samples? some here said don't quantize... yikes. that scares me. I can't even try to play drums with my keys. I really really cant. Maybe If i do it one step at a time. But we're talking about a LOT of work here. That scares me.
To be honest I wrote and recorded "Music Box" in one night with tracktion... one night
I really want to get more songs out of me which is why i ask about this help in suggestions. I want to do fuller sounds, when I hear drum loops im like YES that rules but i want to make these sounds with my own two hands! You know? And beatsplicing etcetc never ever works out for me.... Again just random thoughts which im sure will help others as well as I.
I'm still hungry for tips if anyone has them, especially maybe for shaker/tamb ideas
greatful,
RoNC
Also how do you humanize your samples? some here said don't quantize... yikes. that scares me. I can't even try to play drums with my keys. I really really cant. Maybe If i do it one step at a time. But we're talking about a LOT of work here. That scares me.
To be honest I wrote and recorded "Music Box" in one night with tracktion... one night
I really want to get more songs out of me which is why i ask about this help in suggestions. I want to do fuller sounds, when I hear drum loops im like YES that rules but i want to make these sounds with my own two hands! You know? And beatsplicing etcetc never ever works out for me.... Again just random thoughts which im sure will help others as well as I.
I'm still hungry for tips if anyone has them, especially maybe for shaker/tamb ideas
greatful,
RoNC
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- KVRAF
- 13444 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
As far as quantizing goes, I usually quantize all my drums. I just happen to:
- Add different q-values to them, sometimes extracted from another groove.
- Shift tracks a bit back, especially snares, to make them sound more relaxed.
- Add some non-quantized elements, such as a manually played shaker or audio loops of such.
- Add different q-values to them, sometimes extracted from another groove.
- Shift tracks a bit back, especially snares, to make them sound more relaxed.
- Add some non-quantized elements, such as a manually played shaker or audio loops of such.
Well, the samples just sound like that... and, they're running through an instance of "Endorphin" (not even a trong setting), a dual band compressor I like for drums - yeah, it's made by the "fish guy" and free as well.rpc9943 wrote:frank sascha, those drums even though you said suck, are really cool.... How did you get the punch? ARGH
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.