making a list of plugins and techniques for distance emulation

[cthonophonic]

B2, breeze and aether all interact with precedence.

I don't have B2 or Aether, but I think it's just Breeze 2 that 'interacts" with Precedence in the sense that changing the position in Precedence will change the wet/dry mix and the pre-delay of a linked Breeze instance. I think there were plans to update the other reverbs to interact with Precedence, but as far as I know, those never came to fruition before the company owners had their falling out. The product page for Precedence mentions that its modulation "augments the spatialization" of other 2cAudio reverbs, but that's surely true of many other reverbs as well.

[j wazza]

B2, breeze and aether all interact with precedence.

I don't have B2 or Aether, but I think it's just Breeze 2 that 'interacts" with Precedence in the sense that changing the position in Precedence will change the wet/dry mix and the pre-delay of a linked Breeze instance. I think there were plans to update the other reverbs to interact with Precedence, but as far as I know, those never came to fruition before the company owners had their falling out. The product page for Precedence mentions that its modulation "augments the spatialization" of other 2cAudio reverbs, but that's surely true of many other reverbs as well.

I think you're right, thanks! Have changed the OP. In the manual it says that the breeze-precedence link does a bit more 'sophisticated' stuff than just changing the mix and predelay, but it does mention those

I'm still working on the list, adding everyone's suggestions and links etc

[tombakerradio]

just record stuff from far away

[j wazza]

Added nugen paragon and inspirata by inspired acoustics. Paragon is unique (afaik) in that it resynthesises the impulse responses, but both are convolution reverbs with source placement. Does anyone know if other convolution reverbs (like waves IR1, liquidsonics reverberate, east west spaces) have different source/mic positions?

All convolution reverbs can be used to add distance though

Also added a new raytracing reverb with positioning of the source and listener called lese eigen https://lese.io/plugin/eigen/

and ARverb room which has buttons for selectable distances and pan angles https://arverb.com/

[kvaca]

Does anyone know if other convolution reverbs (like waves IR1, liquidsonics reverberate, east west spaces) have different source/mic positions?

waves IR1 /same as altiverb and maybe others/ HAVE different source/mic positions, but their amount is very limited /usually 2-3, very rarely more/...on the other side you have waves Trueverb with "distance" parameter, which is almost unlimited

[j wazza]

Does anyone know if other convolution reverbs (like waves IR1, liquidsonics reverberate, east west spaces) have different source/mic positions?

waves IR1 /same as altiverb and maybe others/ HAVE different source/mic positions, but their amount is very limited /usually 2-3, very rarely more/...on the other side you have waves Trueverb with "distance" parameter, which is almost unlimited

Thanks! I've also found that by moving the start position of an impulse response in a convolution reverb, you can get a more distant sound as you get less early reflections and more of the later, more distant reflections.

[Here I am]

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Fiedler has two versions of spacelab

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[jordand2112]

Besides EQ and Reverbs, don't forget that compression (or even multiband comp) can be extremely important to limiting the "closeness" attribute that sounds like vocals have to them and set them back in a mix as if they were further away, but without it, it feels like they're inside your ears. Just a lil tidbit that I really took in when in a famous Brooklyn studio the other day.

[filulilu]

Also:

FLUX Revolution. Very realistic reverb, extremely versatile, expensive.
https://www.flux.audio/project/spat-revolution/

Universal Audio UAD Ocean Way Studios. You need to have UAD hardware.
https://www.uaudio.com/uad-plugins/reve ... udios.html

[j wazza]

Besides EQ and Reverbs, don't forget that compression (or even multiband comp) can be extremely important to limiting the "closeness" attribute that sounds like vocals have to them and set them back in a mix as if they were further away, but without it, it feels like they're inside your ears. Just a lil tidbit that I really took in when in a famous Brooklyn studio the other day.

Thanks! Is there a particular type of compression that makes things sound further away? As sometimes compression with makeup gain can make a sound louder and more upfront in the mix. I think maybe a compressor without makeup gain and/or with a fast attack to squash transients and spikes could make a sound more distant

[j wazza]

ive been learning a lot about how to create a sense of distance and this is what i've found:

• distant reflections will often have a longer attack or bloom time, i read from valhalla that the reflections in a large church can take a second or longer to reach full volume

• in the decay phase, the later, more distant reflections will be quieter, the volume decreases exponentially with distance

• distant reflections will be more filtered - frequencies above 10khz decay in just a few seconds in the air. Comb filters are also good for adding distance

• The sound becomes less grainy over time, it gets smoother over time. removing transients helps with this

• distant reflections will be more dense - this means that the delays/echoes are closer together in time. Echo density usually increases over time, but in very large distances there can also be audible echoes that are more like a delay than reverb.

• distant reflections will be more diffuse - more smeared over time. diffusion works by delaying only some frequencies, spreading out the sound's energy over time. Reverbs do this with allpasses, which is also what phasers are made from, so they also spread the frequencies over time (but usually by less time than the allpasses in reverbs). Phasers can be great with reverb, random modulation with low depths can help.

• distant reflections will also have more frequencies (a higher modal density). This means that individual resonances will stick out less because there are more frequencies produced by the room resonating, it becomes more random as time goes on

• convolution with noise has a very high density in terms of both time (echo density) and frequencies (modal density), so it works really well. the impulse response of late reflections is often very close to noise. I love using fog convolver to tweak impulses on the fly. I like using falcon's noise for the IR samples, as it lets you control the density of the noise. It sounds best with reverb, diffusion or other effects already on the noise IR, you want it to be smooth.

• there will also be more delay/pitch mod in large spaces due to temperature differences

• putting things in feedback loops will make them increase over time to achieve these time-variant effects. You can also use modulators, and many reverbs and diffusion delays have parameters for these things

• the contrast of the early (more grainy) and late reflections (more smeared) helps to perceive distance. It's not just always about starting off as smeared as possible to add the most distance.

• simply increasing reverb size, and the wet level (relative to dry) can help

I also like applying these principles when designing sounds in synths, eg delaying sine waves of different frequencies to get diffusion. Using unison like a reverb, making a copy of a sound with more filtering, a slower attack and longer release etc, then putting actual reverb on

and a new addition: https://www.kvraudio.com/news/audio-bre ... mats-57046

[jordand2112]

Besides EQ and Reverbs, don't forget that compression (or even multiband comp) can be extremely important to limiting the "closeness" attribute that sounds like vocals have to them and set them back in a mix as if they were further away, but without it, it feels like they're inside your ears. Just a lil tidbit that I really took in when in a famous Brooklyn studio the other day.

Thanks! Is there a particular type of compression that makes things sound further away? As sometimes compression with makeup gain can make a sound louder and more upfront in the mix. I think maybe a compressor without makeup gain and/or with a fast attack to squash transients and spikes could make a sound more distant

Hey man,
Sorry for the late response but hope I by chance can still be some help. Not quite what I meant, but seems like you already get part of it -- a fast attack AND release will make it feel less dynamic in the very short term (as in individual syllables in words, or even quicker than that) so that will affect how punchy and motivated the vocal feels. Think about your friend yell-singing a song in the car with you or some shit. Now think about them doing the same in a room but 30 feet away from you. Regardless of how the reverb, delay, modulation, or phase cancellation sounds, you're going to get a much softer, less pokey volume from them over time -- much more smoothed out. That's what compression can do if you take it off the deep end and make it nearly a flat waveform. I don't think you get what makeup gain is -- it's quite literally an output volume control for you to (usually) set it to be peaking at around the same level to continue with correct gain staging, and you can A:B the before and after fairly. It does not effect the dynamics whatsoever, so yes, if you have it up vs the plugin bypassed, you're essentially turning your track's fader up, so of course that makes it feel more forward.

Ideally if you want something upfront, you want to have a moderate attack and release settings so that you aren't engaging the comp as soon as the transient hits it (the spiky part of a waveform, including a little area to its left and right) yet quick enough to pull down a bit of its very peak -- or maybe even just after the very peak (more natural but harsh), if you listen real closely you might hear that crossover. Since the release is effectively smoothly turning off your comp over a short period of time, your makeup gain (which you should have set right before comparing before/after, after you dial in your other settings) is basically raising the track's volume AS the release happens. So, your release should likely be fairly quick, otherwise with vocals anyways, you won't be effectively raising the gain up until that track is already approaching the next transient that'll re-trigger the comp, which would be awkward and possibly even counter-productive, but not always so incredibly fast that there's no organic break/difference in the waveform (or volume) between the transient and the sustain of a note/word. If you dial it in so it's a moderately quick attack and release, you'll retain the max amount of that "punch" while raising up the most amount of volume --> a more focused, yet, energetic track in a mix. It's the hardest effect to master in my opinion. Sorry if any of it is repeated or you already know these things to a tee, but there might be some more logical explanation below:

Now if you keep some of that with a lower ratio, slower attack and release, or many combos of these, you'll be able to retain that initial thrust that gives a track energy, not clamping down the comp too quickly so that some of the transient still gets through (attack) yet not allowing the makeup gain to basically fill the sustain up with gain too slowly to where the compressor hasn't recovered back to 0db before being triggered by another transient (too slow of release - called "pumping") and sometimes for more punch, you wouldn't want the release to be quick, otherwise with a moderate attack, right after the initial bump of the transient you'd just have a plateau in the waveform and it might make a track feel more subtle and laid back (too fast of release, very pop-y in a sense, also kinda artificial in extreme).

[greententacle]

isnt it all volume, eq, panning and reverb?

[Tj Shredder]

isnt it all volume, eq, panning and reverb?

No, read just this page…

Btw. ab vortEx looks really interesting! I have to check it out…

[Ah_Dziz]

VSS is the Pope's jizz. Otherwise I find EQ pan and level do the job with a bit of convolution ER.