I'm trying to push the total loudness up in a mix without losing too much of the punch of the drums (snare especially). I compress the drums (sampled acoustic kit btw) with a compressor (soft knee) first to try to maintain a punchy sound while reducing the peek level enough so the limiter won't cut the snare. This helps to a certain extent, but finding a good compromise so not to lose too much punch or too much dynamics is really hard. In the end I always feel I've ruined the original sound (the compressor kills the dynamics, the limiter kills the punch).
How do you guys handle this? Will you please share some tips and tricks?
Limiting and keeping the punch
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- KVRian
- 1269 posts since 6 Nov, 2002 from where moose mate, mate
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- KVRAF
- 1907 posts since 29 Oct, 2003
to some extent, doing exactly opposite as *by the book* helps - which means tweaking the mix *to final compressor*.
(some eingineers I know do this pluging the hw tc box on console and then adjust drums, vocals and verbs levels) - and thus tweaked mix generally sounds as it should when returned from master house.
so, supposing you'll master your track in wavelab or similar, choose your master chain, save fxp's of what you came with, then go back to sequencer, reproduce the master chain in it, load fxp's and then tweak mix to it, then retweak master fx - iterate this untill you think you made acceptable compromise.
save fxp's, export as 32bit without master fx, import in your editor and do the detailed master in it.
edit: some say it's good keeping premaster mix peaks at -3dB. some of my things sounded perfectly ok with peaks at -1dB.
(some eingineers I know do this pluging the hw tc box on console and then adjust drums, vocals and verbs levels) - and thus tweaked mix generally sounds as it should when returned from master house.
so, supposing you'll master your track in wavelab or similar, choose your master chain, save fxp's of what you came with, then go back to sequencer, reproduce the master chain in it, load fxp's and then tweak mix to it, then retweak master fx - iterate this untill you think you made acceptable compromise.
save fxp's, export as 32bit without master fx, import in your editor and do the detailed master in it.
edit: some say it's good keeping premaster mix peaks at -3dB. some of my things sounded perfectly ok with peaks at -1dB.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1269 posts since 6 Nov, 2002 from where moose mate, mate
mauseoleum, thanks! Good idea! It should be a lot easier to get the right tweak of compression and eq of the drums in the mix this way. Will definitely try it out.
As far as my FX chain is concerned, would you say I'm on the right track compressing the drums with soft knee to get the peeks down enough before the master limiter (maximizer)? Is this the best way to keep the punch when raising loudness? Actually I also always insert a multiband compressor in the master chain before the limiter (to keep the peeks down for all - but especially percussive - instruments).
As far as my FX chain is concerned, would you say I'm on the right track compressing the drums with soft knee to get the peeks down enough before the master limiter (maximizer)? Is this the best way to keep the punch when raising loudness? Actually I also always insert a multiband compressor in the master chain before the limiter (to keep the peeks down for all - but especially percussive - instruments).
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- KVRist
- 360 posts since 23 Feb, 2001 from San Rafael, California
Maybe you should consider *not* pushing the volume level so much... it's way overdone these days and as you've realised yourself, it ruins the dynamics and the mix...
Insane what some releases do out there, for me it's unbearable, can't listen to that squashed mess...
Insane what some releases do out there, for me it's unbearable, can't listen to that squashed mess...
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1269 posts since 6 Nov, 2002 from where moose mate, mate
c_huelsbeck, I definitely see your point and to great extent I agree. Actually I don't make "loud music" (if you know what I mean). I don't push the loudness too much when mixing/mastering I think. Still I find loosing punchiness a big problem.
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- KVRAF
- 4692 posts since 28 Jan, 2003 from In these very interwebs
Tricky problem.
One way of tackling it is to NOT use a great deal of limiting on the master bus. Add some gentle simgle-band compression and soft clipping into the equation, so you can get loudness without having to work the limiter so hard. Most clean limiters just suck the life out of music.
Forever,
Kim.
One way of tackling it is to NOT use a great deal of limiting on the master bus. Add some gentle simgle-band compression and soft clipping into the equation, so you can get loudness without having to work the limiter so hard. Most clean limiters just suck the life out of music.
Forever,
Kim.
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- KVRAF
- 13444 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
I couldn't agree more!c_huelsbeck wrote:Maybe you should consider *not* pushing the volume level so much... it's way overdone these days and as you've realised yourself, it ruins the dynamics and the mix...
Insane what some releases do out there, for me it's unbearable, can't listen to that squashed mess...
In case you're NOT releasing something major (in which case you'd send your mixes to a seperated mastering facility anyways, at least I'd do so), just keep things sounding fine. People listening to your stuff should freaking turn up the volume in case they want it louder.
There's a few things that can be done, even by an ambitioned amateur, but those are only a few...
Instead of wasting too much time with inappropriate mastering (we all just don't have 6-8 different pairs of speakers in a perfect environment to compare mixes on) I'd rather have a look whether some single instruments could be tweaked a bit better. For instance, in case the snare has too much peak, you won't be able to get a sufficient level at all. And mastering won't really help you on that either, because instead of only adressing the snare it'll do *whatever* things to everything in your mix - even if you only wanted the snare to be treated.
Just fool around with individual compressors/limiters on those instruments that seem to drive the output peak levels the most. A limiter setting is a good idea to start with. Apply it to your snare and pull down the threshold - when will it start to actually alter the sound?
Etc...
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1269 posts since 6 Nov, 2002 from where moose mate, mate
I really appreciate the info guys. It seems to me I'm already on the right track then, kinda. For an "ambitioned amateur" (Sascha), I probably spend far too much time on fine tweaking my lousy mixes and doing pathetic mastering attempts - but it's damn fun! 
I want to get really good at it, even if it's only for the sake of my own personal satisfaction. You know how it is.
What effect would you use for soft clipping btw?
I want to get really good at it, even if it's only for the sake of my own personal satisfaction. You know how it is.What effect would you use for soft clipping btw?
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1269 posts since 6 Nov, 2002 from where moose mate, mate
Thanks for the link, platinumears! Printing the paper out as we, eh, post. This will be a really good bedtime read!
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- Narcissistic Messiah
- 4565 posts since 8 Apr, 2002 from https://soundcloud.com/remcoh
Ah snares losing punchyness after limiting - here is a possible problem.
Many samples of snare hits even in romplers or sample based drum computers / banks are compressed already
If you eq and compress extra and limit the source sound you could kill the sound
If the sounds are already compressed only apply eq and don't apply to much limiting
boost up an area in the snare you find nice - i prefer not to much high to have a muffled bang
but many nowadays productions put loads of high in the snare to make it sound clicky
Anyway ...make sure all sounds have their space to travel in before normalising the whole.
Sometimes no compression at all and just a good clean mix out by smart panning and applying
filtering and eq is recommended.
Further listen to the song "sowing the seeds of love " by tears for fears
I find it a classic example of brilliant mix out
Many samples of snare hits even in romplers or sample based drum computers / banks are compressed already
If you eq and compress extra and limit the source sound you could kill the sound
If the sounds are already compressed only apply eq and don't apply to much limiting
boost up an area in the snare you find nice - i prefer not to much high to have a muffled bang
but many nowadays productions put loads of high in the snare to make it sound clicky
Anyway ...make sure all sounds have their space to travel in before normalising the whole.
Sometimes no compression at all and just a good clean mix out by smart panning and applying
filtering and eq is recommended.
Further listen to the song "sowing the seeds of love " by tears for fears
I find it a classic example of brilliant mix out
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1269 posts since 6 Nov, 2002 from where moose mate, mate
Thanks emerald, you've got some good points. When I recorded my last song I used a snare sample that wasn't already compressed (at least not much) so I applied quite a bit of compression myself. Then at some point, by accident, I managed to switch off the fx chain for the snare and to my surprise - the uncomressed snare actually sounded a lot better in the mix! It had a really nice mid range "slap" to it that I had killed. After that I tried to stick as close as possible to the original snare sound. I still had to compress it quite a bit though or, again, the master limiter would eat the punch.
I will indeed listen to "sowing the seeds of love". Actually, I even have that album. Vinyl. Hope the old Victrola is still kicking.
I will indeed listen to "sowing the seeds of love". Actually, I even have that album. Vinyl. Hope the old Victrola is still kicking.
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- KVRAF
- 4692 posts since 28 Jan, 2003 from In these very interwebs
I've got T-RackS, so I use its soft clipper.pekadan wrote:What effect would you use for soft clipping btw?
For free, download Cyanide (no, I'm not kidding) and try the "Loudness?" preset. It's sort of loud and exciting and punchy in a "ghetto" kind of way.
It helps to use some good levelling compression before the soft clipping, to make the sound more smooth. Otherwise the peaks might sound distorted, while the rest of the sound is sparkly clean... which sounds wrong.
Seriously, Cyanide is like a Swiss Army Knife for waveshaping.
Ok, now waiting for flames from people who never let distortion plugins anywhere near their master bus...
Forever,
Kim.
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- KVRAF
- 1907 posts since 29 Oct, 2003
especially without oversampling.Swiss Army Knife for waveshaping
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- KVRist
- 360 posts since 23 Feb, 2001 from San Rafael, California
Something like this might be helpful:
http://www.spl-usa.com/Transient_Designer/in_short.html
Does anyone know if there is something similar in software?
http://www.spl-usa.com/Transient_Designer/in_short.html
Does anyone know if there is something similar in software?