Do you copyright your songs before showing it to producers?

[QuestionAsker]

I’ve been working on an EP the past year and have 5 songs I feel are solid and ready to be recorded, and then released under my own artist name (will be my first release).

I’ve only composed it with voice and guitar, production is my weak point, so my plan is to record them as solid demos with just guitar and vocals and show them to a few producers near me.

I’d probably show it to about 4-5 producers, I don’t really know them, just people near me, or ones that have been recommended through acquaintances, etc.

Just wondering how many on here register their songs before showing them to producers or shopping them around to artists / etc.

(I've read it's also much better to copyright songs individually, vs as a group, as it's much more beneficial in case it does every become a legal issue.

I also think I have to copyright them again, once I'll do the official release? Or is that not the case, if the lyrics/melody haven't really changed?)

[thecontrolcentre]

Have you considered taking your guitar when meeting "producers" and just play them the songs? My understanding around copyright is that once you record the songs (as rough demos or whatever) they are then copyrighted. Having said that, it's probably better to talk to a music lawyer or publisher rather than asking random people on the internet. I'd also add, if you don't trust a "producer" not to steal your tunes, then don't work / record with them.

[BertKoor]

I also think I have to copyright them again, once I'll do the official release? Or is that not the case, if the lyrics/melody haven't really changed?)

No, I don't think that's necessary. As you said, lyrics & melody are what matters. Production & arrangements are not relevant. But chances are that your songs get changed somewhat in the process, so...

My understanding around copyright is that once you record the songs (as rough demos or whatever) they are then copyrighted.

I thought it's the event of publication that gives automatic copyright, but according to the Berne Convention you're right indeed.
In the US it's better to go with established routes there. Publishers know best how to.

if you don't trust a "producer" not to steal your tunes, then don't work / record with them.

Totally agree with that

[gaggle of hermits]

basically you just need evidence that you composed the tune to win a copyright case if it ever gets that far. in the old days one way to ensure this was to post it to someone "trusted" like a lawyer in countries where there's no central register. the US has a register: https://www.copyright.gov/registration/

realistically, there don't seem to be that many cases where a producer has ripped off something that's been shopped to them. and you'll often see situations in fields like movie production where they say outright they dump all unsolicited submissions to avoid being accused of plagiarism. from what i've seen, it's actually more common – not that it's that common – to see a demo uploaded to soundcloud get ripped off (or at least be accused of that). the timbaland case was like this. my favourite is the guy who passed off a demo for FL studio as a new track...which happened to be deadmau5's faxing berlin. oops.

[QuestionAsker]

thanks guys for the suggestions.

Anyone know how the protection for registering an unpublished work expires?

It's kinda weird because I read that you have 3 months from the moment of registering your unpublished work, to publish your work, otherwise you lose rights to seek damages from anyone who steals your work. Sounds like an odd rule. And given it takes a long time to put together a track, 3 months sounds quite short.

[Harry_HH]

thanks guys for the suggestions.

Anyone know how the protection for registering an unpublished work expires?

It's kinda weird because I read that you have 3 months from the moment of registering your unpublished work, to publish your work, otherwise you lose rights to seek damages from anyone who steals your work. Sounds like an odd rule. And given it takes a long time to put together a track, 3 months sounds quite short.

I don't know about the copyright legislation in different countries, e.g. in USA, but you don't have to publish your work to keep your registred IRs in Europe, anyway.

For works in the European Economic Area (EEA) (EU member states plus Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein), the protection period is valid for the entire lifetime of the author and 70 years after the end of the year of his death.
In USA it has been 50 years, to my knowledge.

[PatchAdamz]

Mail yourself a CD that has ALL of your tunes.
When you receive it, leave it unopened with the post mark (date) on it.
Put it away for safe keeping.
Its now dated evidence (poor mans copyright).

I am not a lawyer and do not play one on TV

[jwd606]

Mail yourself a CD that has ALL of your tunes.
When you receive it, leave it unopened with the post mark (date) on it.
Put it away for safe keeping.
Its now dated evidence (poor mans copyright).

I am not a lawyer and do not play one on TV

What's a CD, grandad? Just upload the tracks to a private Soundcloud, Youtube channel if you're bothered.

[gaggle of hermits]

It's kinda weird because I read that you have 3 months from the moment of registering your unpublished work, to publish your work, otherwise you lose rights to seek damages from anyone who steals your work. Sounds like an odd rule. And given it takes a long time to put together a track, 3 months sounds quite short.

if you're referring to what i think you're referring to, you've got it back-arsewards – and when you consider how long it takes for most albums to make it from creation to release, doesn't make much sense.

it's three months *after* publication: https://www.sturmanlaw.com/blogposts/20 ... month-rule

and even then it's just about damages in the US.

[Bombadil]

It will eventually get swept up by some Russian site. Mine did. Another reason why I don't post music online. Nothing you can do about that.
I wouldn't trust the 'mail yourself a copy' method. I've seen that discussion many times over the years, and there is a lack of consensus on its legal validity.
As mentioned, if you're serious, consult a lawyer well versed in copyright law.

[PatchAdamz]

Mail yourself a CD that has ALL of your tunes.
When you receive it, leave it unopened with the post mark (date) on it.
Put it away for safe keeping.
Its now dated evidence (poor mans copyright).

I am not a lawyer and do not play one on TV

What's a CD, grandad? Just upload the tracks to a private Soundcloud, Youtube channel if you're bothered.

Not the same you whippersnapper, when you mail it, it gets a stamp from the postal service which holds some legal status which can be used in court, unlike simply uploading it to a cloud service.

You can do both for extra protection.

If you dont know what a CD is (200 billion CDs had been sold worldwide), look at your PC, or read this:

"CD" and "CDs" redirect here. For other uses, see CD (disambiguation) and CDS (disambiguation).
Compact discCompact Disc wordmark.svg
OD Compact disc.svg
The readable surface of a compact disc includes a spiral track wound tightly enough to cause light to diffract into a full visible spectrum.
Media type Optical disc
Encoding Various
Capacity Typically up to 700 MiB (up to 80 minutes' audio)
Read mechanism 780 nm wavelength (infrared and red edge) semiconductor laser (early players used helium–neon lasers),[1] 1,200 Kbit/s (1×)
Write mechanism 780 nm wavelength (infrared and red edge) semiconductor laser in recordable formats CD-R and CD-RW, pressed mold (stamper) in read only formats
Standard Rainbow Books
Developed by Philips, Sony
Dimensions Diameter: 120 mm (4.7 in)
Thickness: 1.2 mm (0.047 in)
Usage Audio and data storage
Extended to

CD-RW
DVD
Super Audio CD

Released

October 1982; 40 years ago (Japan)
2 March 1983; 39 years ago (Europe and North America)

[2]
Optical discs
CD icon test.svg
General

Optical disc
Optical disc drive
Optical disc authoring
Authoring software
Recording technologies
Recording modes
Packet writing
Burst cutting area

Optical media types

Compact disc (CD): CD-DA, CD-ROM, CD-R, CD-RW, 5.1 Music Disc, Super Audio CD (SACD), Photo CD, CD Video (CDV), Video CD (VCD), Super Video CD (SVCD), CD+G, CD-Text, CD-ROM XA, CD-i, MIL-CD, Mini CD
DVD: DVD-R, DVD+R, DVD-R DL, DVD+R DL, DVD-R DS, DVD+R DS, DVD-RW, DVD+RW, DVD-RAM, DVD-D, DVD-A, DVD-Video, HVD, EcoDisc, MiniDVD
Blu-ray Disc (BD): BD-R & BD-RE, Blu-ray 3D, Mini Blu-ray Disc
Ultra HD Blu-ray
M-DISC
Universal Media Disc (UMD)
Enhanced Versatile Disc (EVD)
Forward Versatile Disc (FVD)
Holographic Versatile Disc (HVD)
China Blue High-definition Disc (CBHD)
HD DVD: HD DVD-R, HD DVD-RW, HD DVD-RAM
High-Definition Versatile Multilayer Disc (HD VMD)
VCDHD
GD-ROM
Personal Video Disc (PVD)
MiniDisc (MD): MD Data, MD Data2
Hi-MD
LaserDisc (LD): LD-ROM, LV-ROM
Video Single Disc (VSD)
Magneto-optical discs
Ultra Density Optical (UDO)
3D optical data storage
Stacked Volumetric Optical Disk (SVOD)
Fluorescent Multilayer Disc
Hyper CD-ROM
Nintendo optical disc (NOD)
Archival Disc (AD)
Professional Disc
DataPlay

Standards

SFF ATAPI/MMC
Mount Rainier (packet writing)
Mount Fuji (layer jump recording)
Rainbow Books
File systems
ISO 9660
Joliet
Romeo
Rock Ridge / SUSP
El Torito
Apple ISO 9660 Extensions
Universal Disk Format (UDF)
ISO 13490

See also

History of optical storage media
High-definition optical disc format war

vte

The compact disc (CD) is a digital optical disc data storage format that was co-developed by Philips and Sony to store and play digital audio recordings. In August 1982, the first compact disc was manufactured. It was then released in October 1982 in Japan and branded as Digital Audio Compact Disc.

The format was later adapted (as CD-ROM) for general-purpose data storage. Several other formats were further derived, including write-once audio and data storage (CD-R), rewritable media (CD-RW), Video CD (VCD), Super Video CD (SVCD), Photo CD, Picture CD, Compact Disc-Interactive (CD-i) and Enhanced Music CD.

Standard CDs have a diameter of 120 millimetres (4.7 in) and are designed to hold up to 74 minutes of uncompressed stereo digital audio or about 650 MiB of data. Capacity is routinely extended to 80 minutes and 700 MiB by arranging data more closely on the same sized disc. The Mini CD has various diameters ranging from 60 to 80 millimetres (2.4 to 3.1 in); they are sometimes used for CD singles, storing up to 24 minutes of audio, or delivering device drivers.

At the time of the technology's introduction in 1982, a CD could store much more data than a personal computer hard disk drive, which would typically hold 10 MiB. By 2010, hard drives commonly offered as much storage space as a thousand CDs, while their prices had plummeted to commodity level. In 2004, worldwide sales of audio CDs, CD-ROMs, and CD-Rs reached about 30 billion discs. By 2007, 200 billion CDs had been sold worldwide.[3]

[BertKoor]

It would help determining the goalposts if we knew what the OP's country of origin is.

Regarding the poor-man's copyright:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright#Registration

In all countries where the Berne Convention standards apply, copyright is automatic, and need not be obtained through official registration with any government office. Once an idea has been reduced to tangible form, for example by securing it in a fixed medium (such as a drawing, sheet music, photograph, a videotape, or a computer file), the copyright holder is entitled to enforce their exclusive rights. However, while registration is not needed to exercise copyright, in jurisdictions where the laws provide for registration, it serves as prima facie evidence of a valid copyright and enables the copyright holder to seek statutory damages and attorney's fees. (In the US, registering after an infringement only enables one to receive actual damages and lost profits.)

A widely circulated strategy to avoid the cost of copyright registration is referred to as the poor man's copyright. It proposes that the creator send the work to themself in a sealed envelope by registered mail, using the postmark to establish the date. This technique has not been recognized in any published opinions of the United States courts. The United States Copyright Office says the technique is not a substitute for actual registration. The United Kingdom Intellectual Property Office discusses the technique and notes that the technique (as well as commercial registries) does not constitute dispositive proof that the work is original or establish who created the work.

Do whatever you like, but in the US: if ain't registered it won't stick in court.

[original flipper]

Hi
When you produce music on a DAW and save your work, the saved file should be date stamped - shouldn't it?
In which case surely that is significant evidence of the date at which you created and by default earn copyright?

[michat]

Mail yourself a CD that has ALL of your tunes.
When you receive it, leave it unopened with the post mark (date) on it.
Put it away for safe keeping.
Its now dated evidence (poor mans copyright).

I am not a lawyer and do not play one on TV

What's a CD, grandad? Just upload the tracks to a private Soundcloud, Youtube channel if you're bothered.

Not the same you whippersnapper, when you mail it, it gets a stamp from the postal service which holds some legal status which can be used in court, unlike simply uploading it to a cloud service.

You can do both for extra protection.

If you dont know what a CD is (200 billion CDs had been sold worldwide), look at your PC, or read this:

"CD" and "CDs" redirect here. For other uses, see CD (disambiguation) and CDS (disambiguation).
Compact discCompact Disc wordmark.svg
OD Compact disc.svg
The readable surface of a compact disc includes a spiral track wound tightly enough to cause light to diffract into a full visible spectrum.
Media type Optical disc
Encoding Various
Capacity Typically up to 700 MiB (up to 80 minutes' audio)
Read mechanism 780 nm wavelength (infrared and red edge) semiconductor laser (early players used helium–neon lasers),[1] 1,200 Kbit/s (1×)
Write mechanism 780 nm wavelength (infrared and red edge) semiconductor laser in recordable formats CD-R and CD-RW, pressed mold (stamper) in read only formats
Standard Rainbow Books
Developed by Philips, Sony
Dimensions Diameter: 120 mm (4.7 in)
Thickness: 1.2 mm (0.047 in)
Usage Audio and data storage
Extended to

CD-RW
DVD
Super Audio CD

Released

October 1982; 40 years ago (Japan)
2 March 1983; 39 years ago (Europe and North America)

[2]
Optical discs
CD icon test.svg
General

Optical disc
Optical disc drive
Optical disc authoring
Authoring software
Recording technologies
Recording modes
Packet writing
Burst cutting area

Optical media types

Compact disc (CD): CD-DA, CD-ROM, CD-R, CD-RW, 5.1 Music Disc, Super Audio CD (SACD), Photo CD, CD Video (CDV), Video CD (VCD), Super Video CD (SVCD), CD+G, CD-Text, CD-ROM XA, CD-i, MIL-CD, Mini CD
DVD: DVD-R, DVD+R, DVD-R DL, DVD+R DL, DVD-R DS, DVD+R DS, DVD-RW, DVD+RW, DVD-RAM, DVD-D, DVD-A, DVD-Video, HVD, EcoDisc, MiniDVD
Blu-ray Disc (BD): BD-R & BD-RE, Blu-ray 3D, Mini Blu-ray Disc
Ultra HD Blu-ray
M-DISC
Universal Media Disc (UMD)
Enhanced Versatile Disc (EVD)
Forward Versatile Disc (FVD)
Holographic Versatile Disc (HVD)
China Blue High-definition Disc (CBHD)
HD DVD: HD DVD-R, HD DVD-RW, HD DVD-RAM
High-Definition Versatile Multilayer Disc (HD VMD)
VCDHD
GD-ROM
Personal Video Disc (PVD)
MiniDisc (MD): MD Data, MD Data2
Hi-MD
LaserDisc (LD): LD-ROM, LV-ROM
Video Single Disc (VSD)
Magneto-optical discs
Ultra Density Optical (UDO)
3D optical data storage
Stacked Volumetric Optical Disk (SVOD)
Fluorescent Multilayer Disc
Hyper CD-ROM
Nintendo optical disc (NOD)
Archival Disc (AD)
Professional Disc
DataPlay

Standards

SFF ATAPI/MMC
Mount Rainier (packet writing)
Mount Fuji (layer jump recording)
Rainbow Books
File systems
ISO 9660
Joliet
Romeo
Rock Ridge / SUSP
El Torito
Apple ISO 9660 Extensions
Universal Disk Format (UDF)
ISO 13490

See also

History of optical storage media
High-definition optical disc format war

vte

The compact disc (CD) is a digital optical disc data storage format that was co-developed by Philips and Sony to store and play digital audio recordings. In August 1982, the first compact disc was manufactured. It was then released in October 1982 in Japan and branded as Digital Audio Compact Disc.

The format was later adapted (as CD-ROM) for general-purpose data storage. Several other formats were further derived, including write-once audio and data storage (CD-R), rewritable media (CD-RW), Video CD (VCD), Super Video CD (SVCD), Photo CD, Picture CD, Compact Disc-Interactive (CD-i) and Enhanced Music CD.

Standard CDs have a diameter of 120 millimetres (4.7 in) and are designed to hold up to 74 minutes of uncompressed stereo digital audio or about 650 MiB of data. Capacity is routinely extended to 80 minutes and 700 MiB by arranging data more closely on the same sized disc. The Mini CD has various diameters ranging from 60 to 80 millimetres (2.4 to 3.1 in); they are sometimes used for CD singles, storing up to 24 minutes of audio, or delivering device drivers.

At the time of the technology's introduction in 1982, a CD could store much more data than a personal computer hard disk drive, which would typically hold 10 MiB. By 2010, hard drives commonly offered as much storage space as a thousand CDs, while their prices had plummeted to commodity level. In 2004, worldwide sales of audio CDs, CD-ROMs, and CD-Rs reached about 30 billion discs. By 2007, 200 billion CDs had been sold worldwide.[3]

Btw. that's exactly the same advice I got from a lawyer.

[gaggle of hermits]

Hi
When you produce music on a DAW and save your work, the saved file should be date stamped - shouldn't it?
In which case surely that is significant evidence of the date at which you created and by default earn copyright?

faking a creation date on a file system is trivial. and it might not be you who fakes it: someone trying to evade a plagiarism case can do it. if it got that far, some kind of third-party evidence is going to be more convincing - even if it’s just a private soundcloud upload