Bitwig VS Ableton

[pdxindy]

Bitwig applies way too much smoothing to recorded MIDI CC data. It was so bad, I thought it was a bug and sent an e-mail saying that the timing was off on recorded MIDI CC data and they replied telling me to watch to see if it's actually the smoothing algorithm.

Lots of people think it's a bug. The smoothing is terrible. There needs to be an option to turn it off and adjust how much.

[sQeetz]

I've already said it, and still stand by that Ableton Live is nothing without Push. If it wasn't for Push, I would probably be using Logic.... but it's so well integrated that it feels like a unit.

[elnn]

I wonder if there's anything about Bitwig that is not its sound devices that doesn't suck. Its editing, its exporting, its automation, gosh..
The only thing I can think of is that multiple audio snippets can be used in the same audio clip.

If it does not start to prioritize actual workflow improvements and innovations, it's going to become worse than Reason.
(Reason's export is great though. it even exports automation data.)

[machinesworking]

I've already said it, and still stand by that Ableton Live is nothing without Push. If it wasn't for Push, I would probably be using Logic.... but it's so well integrated that it feels like a unit.

I'm primarily in Bitwig and DP, but Live, Bitwig and Reaper all use Push so amazingly. Lives Built in instruments with Push are fantastic.

In terms of old school DAWs, which Reaper qualifies as, as far as workflow and kitchen sink approach, I've been very very temped by Mosses Push for Reaper scripts to switch over to Reaper as a main old school DAW, if it wasn't for it's shit articulation management script.

Also, in terms of functionality, there are some distinct advantages Mosses script for Bitwig has over Lives implementation. mostly with the drum machine etc.

[machinesworking]

I wonder if there's anything about Bitwig that is not its sound devices that doesn't suck. Its editing, its exporting, its automation, gosh..
The only thing I can think of is that multiple audio snippets can be used in the same audio clip.

If it does not start to prioritize actual workflow improvements and innovations, it's going to become worse than Reason.
(Reason's export is great though. it even exports automation data.)

Bitwig has by far the most logical key shortcuts. I can't express enough how much this is a plus.
i- information panel
b- popup browser
o- overview or linear sequencer
l- launcher
m- mixer
a- automation
d- device panel
etc. It actually pisses me off when I'm using other DAWs that randomly assign nonsense to various shortcuts.

If you don't think plug in sandboxing and the fact it prevents 99% of the crashes you normally get in any other DAW is great, then there's something wrong with you.

The modulation of any part of a signal is definitely part of the automation in Bitwig, and it's miles above almost any other DAW, better than Lives for sure.

[sQeetz]

Mosses Push for Reaper

I've tried the scripts for Bitwig, and it just is not the same.
One could work almost entirely with Push when using Live, but not so with anything else

[SLiC]

Mosses Push for Reaper

I've tried the scripts for Bitwig, and it just is not the same.
One could work almost entirely with Push when using Live, but not so with anything else

Yes, this is what I was saying earlier- it is the most integrated hardware available for any platform and seeing the graphics for the instruments and fx on PUSH with all knobs mapped etc is just a joy, you just forget there is even a computer connected.

[sQeetz]

I also bought PusheR for using Push with Reason.... it's lame. Works, but not very well... it just sucks

[sQeetz]

Yes, this is what I was saying earlier- it is the most integrated hardware available for any platform and seeing the graphics for the instruments and fx on PUSH with all knobs mapped etc is just a joy, you just forget there is even a computer connected.

Exactly... You can watch a movie while pressing buttons on the Push... love that

[Trancit]

Bitwig has by far the most logical key shortcuts. I can't express enough how much this is a plus.
i- information panel
b- popup browser
o- overview or linear sequencer
l- launcher
m- mixer
a- automation
d- device panel
etc. It actually pisses me off when I'm using other DAWs that randomly assign nonsense to various shortcuts.

Couldn´t care less...
For me it´s the same no matter which shortcuts I have to learn...
Especially on a system with user defineable shortcuts it doesn´t matter anyway... you don´t like the shortcut...change it...
Nothing I would award Bitwig a medal for...irrelevant bells and whistles and at most a nice to have...

If you don't think plug in sandboxing and the fact it prevents 99% of the crashes you normally get in any other DAW is great, then there's something wrong with you.

I don´t know what kind of plugins you guys are using but for me a crash related to a plugin happens perhaps once in a year... what benefit would I have from any CPU consuming sandboxing...
I see it more the other way round... if a DAW crashes because of widely spreaded and used plugins then there is something wrong with the plugin handling of the DAW ...

The modulation of any part of a signal is definitely part of the automation in Bitwig, and it's miles above almost any other DAW, better than Lives for sure.

Right... but what if you don´t have much need for modulating stuff???
When I look at my normal production workflow I need a lot of automation (while this is not a very strong part of Bitwig and can regarded as super basic) but the little bit of modulation is well covered in the plugins I use...

But what about the thousands of wiggles and niggles in Bitwig... lacking stuff, inconviniences, stuff simply working bad...
If you take away these mentioned 2-3 goodies of Bitwig... there is not much left which can be really beneficial for production apart from sound design (I count CLAP and modulation into this category too)...

Bitwig has perhaps the worse midi editor of all DAWs, is very very click intense to bring stuff you can just do with inspector into focus, has by far the worse transient detection I have ever seen in my life, lacks of every advanced DAW features and parameter editing is very basic with no mousewheel support and even with the lack of using Abletons genius keyboard support (clicking on a parameter and use arrow up/down or directly type in numbers)...

The most features they have "borrowed" from Live are missing exactly the parts which make them important and a joy to use...
90% of their stock plugins are far worse than what Ableton has to offer and to get at least some kind of competitive tone out of them you must use their complete system and invest a ton of work where in Ableton it´s inserting the plugin adjust perhaps 1 or 2 parameters and you are done with a quality which can always compete to other VST´s out there...

And this is perhaps exactly what many people seem to underrate... Live´s plugins are so well thought out and refined that they are sounding great immediately... it´s often nearly impossible to make them sound bad... their filters alone are superb as are their envelopes...
The stuff in Bitwig is perhaps technically correct and the "components" are top notch but refinement completely lacks and everything is up to you to fine adjust everything until it sounds right...
This is for me not a DAW but a construction kit where you have to puzzle everything together yourself...

They made 2-3 things better than Ableton of the cost of missing or imcompleteness (for me) 90% of the goodies...

Nonetheless this doesn´t stop them to make it the most expensive DAW out there and try to squeeze out their users where ever they can...

I really like the idea and the few goodies they have as they are often really great (like i.e. their note fx) and I try over and over again to fight against the shortcomings... but after a short while I have to realize that what I gain on one side I have to pay three times the price (in terms of additional work) on the other...

[pdxindy]

I wonder if there's anything about Bitwig that is not its sound devices that doesn't suck. Its editing, its exporting, its automation, gosh..
The only thing I can think of is that multiple audio snippets can be used in the same audio clip.

In many cases, what someone considers as 'sucks' is subjective... though I think everyone agrees that the transient detection does indeed suck

Some things I like about Bitwig that aren't its sound devices:

It's the most stable DAW I have ever used.
It has my favorite browser of any of the DAW's I've used.
Bounce in Place is fantastic!
Hybrid Tracks
Comping in the Clip Launcher
The preset system
Device Nesting
The ease of working with multiple projects
Remote Controls

Obviously it's not for everyone. And it depends on what someone's priorities are. MPE is very important to me and Bitwig is hands down the best DAW for MPE.

Then of course there are the functions that are important to the individual. I'm fine with the export options cause I start and complete projects entirely in Bitwig. Someone else may be trying to integrate it with other DAW's and then for them the export options could be a critical limitation.

[SLiC]

They made 2-3 things better than Ableton of the cost of missing or imcompleteness (for me) 90% of the goodies...

I use Live as much as I use Bitwig....Bitwig has at least a dozen things that are much better than Live (and visa versa) so its not that easy to say one is better than another, they are fundamentally different programs at this stage, other than clips and a rack, they have little in common.

If it wasn't for PUSH or would work mainly with Bitwig just for the in-clip editing, not 'switching between session and clip screens is fundamental to me, the other stuff matters less, but I do like the modulation system in Bitwig even though I don't use it that much and the pre-set browser is far superior to Live, but I expect Live to fix that next update.

[machinesworking]

Couldn´t care less...
For me it´s the same no matter which shortcuts I have to learn...
Especially on a system with user defineable shortcuts it doesn´t matter anyway... you don´t like the shortcut...change it...

Weird flex considering you can't change the shortcuts in Live.

I don´t know what kind of plugins you guys are using but for me a crash related to a plugin happens perhaps once in a year... what benefit would I have from any CPU consuming sandboxing...
I see it more the other way round... if a DAW crashes because of widely spreaded and used plugins then there is something wrong with the plugin handling of the DAW ..

Like I said, if you can argue against stability, or the ability to use a plug in when it's not stable because it will not kill your DAW, Like Battery 3, a "widely spreaded and used" plug in did to Live in v3, there's something wrong with you.

Right... but what if you don´t have much need for modulating stuff???
When I look at my normal production workflow I need a lot of automation (while this is not a very strong part of Bitwig and can regarded as super basic) but the little bit of modulation is well covered in the plugins I use...

So I don't use tabulator, scoring pages in DAWs do nothing for me. It's easy for me to acknowledge a DAW with a good scoring tab window as useful to someone else.

But what about the thousands of wiggles and niggles in Bitwig... lacking stuff, inconviniences, stuff simply working bad...

I'm calling BS on this, hyperbole isn't helping your point whatever that was.

If you take away these mentioned 2-3 goodies of Bitwig... there is not much left which can be really beneficial for production apart from sound design (I count CLAP and modulation into this category too)...

Bitwig has perhaps the worse midi editor of all DAWs, is very very click intense to bring stuff you can just do with inspector into focus, has by far the worse transient detection I have ever seen in my life, lacks of every advanced DAW features and parameter editing is very basic with no mousewheel support and even with the lack of using Abletons genius keyboard support (clicking on a parameter and use arrow up/down or directly type in numbers)...

Lives MIDI editor sucks as well. It's insane to me having used Logic or DP's MIDI editing to think that Lives is some real improvement. Even with that though, it rarely bothers me, I tend to play in 95% of what I write, and hard quantize it, no neither have bothered me that much. I feel like those that complain must be drawing in notes most of the time, in that way Live is better.

The most features they have "borrowed" from Live are missing exactly the parts which make them important and a joy to use...
90% of their stock plugins are far worse than what Ableton has to offer and to get at least some kind of competitive tone out of them you must use their complete system and invest a ton of work where in Ableton it´s inserting the plugin adjust perhaps 1 or 2 parameters and you are done with a quality which can always compete to other VST´s out there...

And this is perhaps exactly what many people seem to underrate... Live´s plugins are so well thought out and refined that they are sounding great immediately... it´s often nearly impossible to make them sound bad... their filters alone are superb as are their envelopes...

Yeah I'm in complete disagreement with you about the stock plug ins, especially the instruments. I owned the AAS instruments Live bought rights to and stripped of features before they added them, so I've always been annoyed at Lives dumbed down versions.

The stuff in Bitwig is perhaps technically correct and the "components" are top notch but refinement completely lacks and everything is up to you to fine adjust everything until it sounds right...
This is for me not a DAW but a construction kit where you have to puzzle everything together yourself...

You sound like a preset hunter, Bitwig is not for you if that's the case for sure.

They made 2-3 things better than Ableton of the cost of missing or imcompleteness (for me) 90% of the goodies...

the (for me) part is important, for you Live is better, I can't argue against that.

Nonetheless this doesn´t stop them to make it the most expensive DAW out there and try to squeeze out their users where ever they can...

Well Pro Tools remains the most expensive, but hyperbole is a thing. Bitwig is the most expensive to keep up if you need all the latest goodies as soon as they come out, but it does have a solid schedule of releasing them, and you do not have to partake. Plus, there's not any argument to be made that Live isn't the most expensive DAW to buy initially, Suite is not cheap.

I really like the idea and the few goodies they have as they are often really great (like i.e. their note fx) and I try over and over again to fight against the shortcomings... but after a short while I have to realize that what I gain on one side I have to pay three times the price (in terms of additional work) on the other...

This really depends on how you work, obviously for you, this is true. For me the fact there are hundreds of assignable shortcuts right away makes Bitwig faster to navigate.

Personally I own current copies of both Bitwig and Live, I gravitate towards Bitwig 90% of the time, but I have writing partners that use Live, and 30+ songs in Live, so I'm not going to just leave it.

[machinesworking]

Mosses Push for Reaper

I've tried the scripts for Bitwig, and it just is not the same.
One could work almost entirely with Push when using Live, but not so with anything else

Yes, this is what I was saying earlier- it is the most integrated hardware available for any platform and seeing the graphics for the instruments and fx on PUSH with all knobs mapped etc is just a joy, you just forget there is even a computer connected.

Honestly, I don't give a rats rear if I "forget there is even a computer connected."

Without any malice, it's not IMO arguable that a good portion of the things you can navigate without looking at the computer are vastly slower and more cumbersome to do than using the mouse and keyboard. MIDI editing for instance in Push is only useful to people who have some weird fascination with pretending they aren't using a computer.

I've always argued against this notion that a control surface is there to "replace the computer screen", that's just IMO some bizarre nostalgia for a time that never was. As soon as I had a chance to use a computer for editing MIDI and sequencing I immediately ditched hardware sequencers.

I can only guess it's because most of you work in front of computers and associate them with work. That's the only logical explanation for a fascination with this idea that looking at a screen is verboten? It was a common trope about Push on the Ableton forums, and I always have thought is was just weird.

Push 2 for me is a Mackie replacement, automation writing, Session arranging, plug in parameter tweaking device. but it doesn't beat the computer screen and mouse when it comes to MIDI editing, arrangement work, browsing, time stretching etc. etc. all the basics are cumbersome in Push, in Live or Bitwig/Reaper etc. doesn't matter, actual editing work is not where Push and devices like it excel.

[SLiC]

Mosses Push for Reaper

I've tried the scripts for Bitwig, and it just is not the same.
One could work almost entirely with Push when using Live, but not so with anything else

Yes, this is what I was saying earlier- it is the most integrated hardware available for any platform and seeing the graphics for the instruments and fx on PUSH with all knobs mapped etc is just a joy, you just forget there is even a computer connected.

I can only guess it's because most of you work in front of computers and associate them with work. That's the only logical explanation for a fascination with this idea that looking at a screen is verboten? It was a common trope about Push on the Ableton forums, and I always have thought is was just weird.

For me it's because I have a large 2 room studio, I have a bank of synths and a modular not near my studio desk (DAW/Mouse/keyboard) and I can use PUSH to access/control everything in Live without having to walk back over to my Studio desk. Works for me but I am more of a hardware guy anyway

Other may have other uses, I know some people use then as instruments live which probably looks better than standing Infront of a monitor with a keyboard and mouse- not everyone is a producer, there are some performers out there!