I finally understood modes

[jancivil]

is there a real difference that can be pointed to where you can say "this is written in F major, and that is written in F Ionian?"

I’ve gone into detail per a specific and excellent example, and a general tendency of an entire realm of music that is never major/minor paradigm.

fmr asserted no difference but that’s been demonstrated to be wrong to my satisfaction.

but! your reduction [Is it just that "major" is a certain extremely narrow approach to harmonic progression, while "Ionian" is a particular melodic flavour?] is very good.

[jancivil]

[…] does the special status of "major" and "minor" have anything to do with Ionian and Aeolian coming about much later after the original 8 church modes of Dorian, Phyrgian, Lydian, Mixolydian, and their "Hypo" variants?

No, that’s a coincidence.

It seems like much of the understanding of modes evolved a lot over the past 1000 years, and different people here are arguing from very different definitions.

IDK about “much” here, but one member seems virtually entirely early music-centric, while I remember fuckall about terminology eg., "repercusa" regarding landing points that aren’t “1” (and my interest in modes really goes about as far back in history as Debussy) so there are more esoteric definitions afoot here than I’d guess most of us will use. or that I follow anyway

[jamcat]

[…] does the special status of "major" and "minor" have anything to do with Ionian and Aeolian coming about much later after the original 8 church modes of Dorian, Phyrgian, Lydian, Mixolydian, and their "Hypo" variants?

No, that’s a coincidence.

What I was getting at is that it seems like Ionian and Aeolian are the product of a more evolved understanding of music, particularly in being more aptly suited to voice-leading and harmony, which had not been present in early church music. So being the latest advancements in music technology at the time, they provided the best feature set for all the hip polyphonic 18th century composers to work with.

[jancivil]

Ok. I saw “the special status of” or the vaunting of major/minor above modal musics, which became passe, and I don’t myself draw that inference.

It’s been argued that tonal minor - ie., with a ^7 for the V-i - derived from Dorian (CF., Rameau in 1722). He wrote that “the only” difference between major and minor modes was the third; and that in descension the 7th and 6th must be flatted. This appears to pre-exist the term melodic minor by some ways. Not everyone agreed of course, and one Feroli ~half a century later argued for what we call harmonic minor as <the minor mode> which has the single alteration from ‘Aeolian’ @7; only then to argue for avoidance of the augmented second ending up in the same place as Rameau.

So this is pretty opaque.

[jancivil]

I’m not a real apt historian, but I would say a number of other changes came about to inform the shift to tonality that are [as] significant. John Dunstaple liked major sixth and thirds harmonies and seems to have been influenced by the French Fauxbourdon style, for example. interestingly, that means fake drone although I never got how the term came into usage.

[jancivil]

I have a vague recollection of Ionian being a rather later theoretical term that in practice actually was Lydian’s B against F (in yer “Mode of F”) avoided in favor of Bb like the devil; cf., Musica Ficta.
That’s as far down the rabbit hole as I can do. except I could explain “mi contra fa” (aka Diabolus in Musica) as a product of teh Guidonian hand hexachord solfege, which a modern person will call ‘si contra fa’… but I prefer not

Your supposition may be right in general and it’s not so much a coincidence as I posit.

[jamcat]

although the style is not "religious" (this is secular music)

it's a song to the Virgin Mary, yet not "religious".

fmr is right, though. Having originated from the court of King Alfonso X, this is indeed secular, not liturgical music. "Religious music" in this context doesn't merely connote religious themes and subject matter. It denotes official ceremonial music performed in church during specific rites and rituals. This, on the other hand, was "popular" music of the time.

However, while the performance of Santa Maria, Strela do Dia (Cantiga n°100) presented in this video is impressive, it is also misleading. This is actually a modern arrangement in the style of Dead Can Dance. The original canticle from 1250 is monophonic.

[vurt]

you can start any mode on D though

was kind of a joke, as key, scale, modes are not the same thing, but he was mixing terms, so i did too...

Actually he wasn’t, exactly, but just using the moar edumacated usage for what we plebes will call Dorian Mode.

Albeit a modern person’s modality and a would-be academic choosing medieval Church Authority uber alles are not speaky the same lingo, quite.

ah thanks.

im sure one day, this will all make sense, there will be a moment of clarity! probably about 5 mins before i kick off this meat suit.

[jancivil]

There are things such as “Mode of D” there, and Rameau calling D “Re” (per “Fixed Do”) that passed from currency ages ago. “Do” is 1, since 12tET at least. So I don’t quote Rameau or Feroli but paraphrased.

[BertKoor]

If you mean me [...] I’m not worried tho

No worries indeed, Jan, it's ok.
It was not directed at you, more something that irritates me in general. At times...

[jancivil]

ok, I’m sorry then

[BertKoor]

[Fle81]

I have tried it and it opened my mind

[vurt]

sometimes, i think i do, then i read through this thread, and it's gone again.

[jancivil]

[…] does the special status of "major" and "minor" have anything to do with Ionian and Aeolian coming about much later after the original 8 church modes of Dorian, Phyrgian, Lydian, Mixolydian, and their "Hypo" variants?

No, that’s a coincidence.

What I was getting at is that it seems like Ionian and Aeolian are the product of a more evolved understanding of music, particularly in being more aptly suited to voice-leading and harmony, which had not been present in early church music. So being the latest advancements in music technology at the time, they provided the best feature set for all the hip polyphonic 18th century composers to work with.

Thing is I don’t see “Ionian” as such a more evolved understanding than the de facto set which happened not to be called Ionian but was identical to it, only known as Lydian with a lowered (Mi in the Guidonian hand hexachord solfege*) Si (in modern normal 7-note solfege), ie., “Mode of F’s” F to B in practice was F to Bb in avoidance of the dreaded “*Mi contra Fa”, Diabolus in Musica (let’s skip opening the can of worms Musica Ficta presents).

“More evolved” gets us to an aesthetic judgment I would stop short of making just on the materials.