Yes.c_huelsbeck wrote:Something like this might be helpful:
http://www.spl-usa.com/Transient_Designer/in_short.html
Does anyone know if there is something similar in software?
Groet, Erik
Limiting and keeping the punch
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- KVRAF
- 3964 posts since 31 Aug, 2003 from In a foreign town, in a foreign land
Groet, Erik
Pop music delenda est.
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- KVRAF
- 12235 posts since 18 Aug, 2003
I'm not a pro engineer, so this isn't expert advice but I'll give you some lessons I've learned.
Don't compress so much. Silly I know, but consider that limiting is really just a specialized form of dynamics compression. So if you use line compression, master compression and master limiting, that's a lot of squashing going on.
I just recently went over some 2 year old mixes of mine and had to re-record a couple. One was pressed to a loudness of -9db RMS. Yikes! Listening back, all I could think was the bass sounded awful, too loud, and just plain lifeless. I got it back to about -14 db after re-recording and it sounded like a song once again.
I've had some good experience using a limiter down to the average highest peak in my mix (just sort of pick a level looking at the waveform if you're using a digital editor), so that the master limiter is compressing roughly no more than -1.5db down on high transients and that's it, just smoothening the peak variation and giving everything else a slight gain boost. Or a maximizer as the case may be, as I'm using the WaveHammer processor in Sound Forge. A sidenote, I know there's a difference between a limiter and a maximizer, but not sure what. Anyone can explain?
I've found multiband compressors are more emergency style processors, or at least for specific uses. I'd prefer more people first make good use of subtractive EQing first, makes sound a little less ugly to start. I've heard things recently where there were at least four or five layers of compression in the mix, and the song really did suffer for it. It's not just ear fatigue to worry about, but also just reduced distinction between sounds.
An experiment, try mixing a track without any compression anywhere. Then use a limiter lightly just to get it up to the right overall volume you want, and listen closely to what you think is missing. Try fixing it without a compressor at all.
You might discover some good techniques doing it that way. It might turn out that friendlier volume adjustments is all you need, like better panning strategies or track gain balance. You might even find that you have to rethink some of your composing techniques, so that you write more dynamic variety in to the song just to make life easier for you on the engineering side.
Cheers,
Steve
Don't compress so much. Silly I know, but consider that limiting is really just a specialized form of dynamics compression. So if you use line compression, master compression and master limiting, that's a lot of squashing going on.
I just recently went over some 2 year old mixes of mine and had to re-record a couple. One was pressed to a loudness of -9db RMS. Yikes! Listening back, all I could think was the bass sounded awful, too loud, and just plain lifeless. I got it back to about -14 db after re-recording and it sounded like a song once again.
I've had some good experience using a limiter down to the average highest peak in my mix (just sort of pick a level looking at the waveform if you're using a digital editor), so that the master limiter is compressing roughly no more than -1.5db down on high transients and that's it, just smoothening the peak variation and giving everything else a slight gain boost. Or a maximizer as the case may be, as I'm using the WaveHammer processor in Sound Forge. A sidenote, I know there's a difference between a limiter and a maximizer, but not sure what. Anyone can explain?
I've found multiband compressors are more emergency style processors, or at least for specific uses. I'd prefer more people first make good use of subtractive EQing first, makes sound a little less ugly to start. I've heard things recently where there were at least four or five layers of compression in the mix, and the song really did suffer for it. It's not just ear fatigue to worry about, but also just reduced distinction between sounds.
An experiment, try mixing a track without any compression anywhere. Then use a limiter lightly just to get it up to the right overall volume you want, and listen closely to what you think is missing. Try fixing it without a compressor at all.
You might discover some good techniques doing it that way. It might turn out that friendlier volume adjustments is all you need, like better panning strategies or track gain balance. You might even find that you have to rethink some of your composing techniques, so that you write more dynamic variety in to the song just to make life easier for you on the engineering side.
Cheers,
Steve
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- KVRAF
- 13444 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
In case you want to try something free (yet very good IMO), go for digitalfishphones "Dominion". Part of the fish fillets package (which IMO is a fantastic pack for a freebie).c_huelsbeck wrote: Does anyone know if there is something similar in software?
www.digitalfishphones.com
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
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- KVRist
- 360 posts since 23 Feb, 2001 from San Rafael, California
Thanks, that was exactly what I was looking for...loomchild wrote:Chris,
the only thing I know that comes close to that is DOMINION from Digital Fish Phones.
(Thanks also to Sascha)
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- KVRAF
- 8705 posts since 24 May, 2002 from Tutukaka, New Zealand
I'll second the recommendation for Dominion. It's designed with drums in mind, and works very well on most drumtracks.
To be honest, I rarely use compression on either drumloops or snares if they're sampled; especially loops - they're compressed, valved, limited, mastered already if they're lifted off vinyl. I may occasionally use a compressor to emphasize the transient...have a sufficiently long attack and then don't apply any gain boost...that way brings down the snare body, which can be effective depending on the source and the style you're after.
But I have to say it's far easier just leaving your drums alone as far as dynamics are concerned. Use your Eq or whatever, apply FX etc, then route everything to do with the drums to a group, and slap Dominion over the whole drumtrack. That way you can boost up the transients and still maintain some cohesion and add power to the drums without huge amounts of compression.
And strange that Jeez's mention of distortion on drums was (personally I wouldn't use distortion at the master stage) but with drums, distortion if used well can be a great replacement for compression - subtle distortion can make drums sound so in-yer-face (and if you do it properly, it doesn't have to lose clarity either). Cyanide is probably one of the most flexible I've used. The thingy that's with SX nowadays (the 4-band fuzz whatsit) is pretty useful for drums (although I suspect most people overlook it) simply because you can decide to separate out some bands and not distort them. And big Tick's old plugin Nastyshaper is a real beauty when used subtly - I have no idea what most of the controls mean, but all I know is that you can put Nastyshaper on almost anything from drums to synths and even on FX to bring them right out at the front of the mix without destroying the sound.
So if you really want in-yer-face, but with dynamics still intact, then use Dominion over the group and then subtle distortion over the top of that (or vice versa) and then pipe it out of a second set of card outs, feed it into an overdriven analogue compressor and pump it to buggery with a nice long attack
To be honest, I rarely use compression on either drumloops or snares if they're sampled; especially loops - they're compressed, valved, limited, mastered already if they're lifted off vinyl. I may occasionally use a compressor to emphasize the transient...have a sufficiently long attack and then don't apply any gain boost...that way brings down the snare body, which can be effective depending on the source and the style you're after.
But I have to say it's far easier just leaving your drums alone as far as dynamics are concerned. Use your Eq or whatever, apply FX etc, then route everything to do with the drums to a group, and slap Dominion over the whole drumtrack. That way you can boost up the transients and still maintain some cohesion and add power to the drums without huge amounts of compression.
And strange that Jeez's mention of distortion on drums was (personally I wouldn't use distortion at the master stage) but with drums, distortion if used well can be a great replacement for compression - subtle distortion can make drums sound so in-yer-face (and if you do it properly, it doesn't have to lose clarity either). Cyanide is probably one of the most flexible I've used. The thingy that's with SX nowadays (the 4-band fuzz whatsit) is pretty useful for drums (although I suspect most people overlook it) simply because you can decide to separate out some bands and not distort them. And big Tick's old plugin Nastyshaper is a real beauty when used subtly - I have no idea what most of the controls mean, but all I know is that you can put Nastyshaper on almost anything from drums to synths and even on FX to bring them right out at the front of the mix without destroying the sound.
So if you really want in-yer-face, but with dynamics still intact, then use Dominion over the group and then subtle distortion over the top of that (or vice versa) and then pipe it out of a second set of card outs, feed it into an overdriven analogue compressor and pump it to buggery with a nice long attack
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- KVRAF
- 4692 posts since 28 Jan, 2003 from In these very interwebs
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- KVRAF
- 4692 posts since 28 Jan, 2003 from In these very interwebs
Dominion.c_huelsbeck wrote:Something like this might be helpful:
http://www.spl-usa.com/Transient_Designer/in_short.html
Does anyone know if there is something similar in software?
Forever,
Kim.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1269 posts since 6 Nov, 2002 from where moose mate, mate
I've really learned a lot from this thread. It's clear to me I have to put more effort into the composing and mixing so that I don't need all that compression and limiting. After all, if the compressor reduces dynamics of the drums too much and the limiter kills the punch, I really need to do less of both - rather than finding some sort of compromise. Truly I need to become better friends with the eq!
This makes sense. I mean, I feel I need to use a limiter to increase the clearness and overall loundess but this kills the punch of the drums. What I really need to do is try to make the mix sound clearer and louder (mainly by making better use of composition, eq and panning) before mastering. This is not about the drums at all.
Thanks again everyone!
This makes sense. I mean, I feel I need to use a limiter to increase the clearness and overall loundess but this kills the punch of the drums. What I really need to do is try to make the mix sound clearer and louder (mainly by making better use of composition, eq and panning) before mastering. This is not about the drums at all.
In my case this is definitely true. If I learn to get good results without even using a MB compressor, I will know I've come a long way.shamann wrote:I've found multiband compressors are more emergency style processors
Thanks again everyone!
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- KVRAF
- 13444 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
Defenitely! Just as there is the old saying "we'll fix it in the mix" (which is untrue IMO, as your source signals have to be great allready) there's nothing like "we'll pump it up while mastering" either. Works to some extent, but in any case it'll work WAY better if your mixes are kickass (and pumping) allready!pekadan wrote: What I really need to do is try to make the mix sound clearer and louder (mainly by making better use of composition, eq and panning) before mastering. This is not about the drums at all.
I suck a mixing (I'm serious about that, both my ears and my environment seem to be inferior), but still I try to get the best out of my mixes and don't give a damn about mastering.
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.