Advice?: Production Setup for Under-Privileged Youth

[saint_william]

I work for a small organization that works closely with children and teens who live in homes where they have not had the advantages that many of us had, or at least I had, growing up. A big purpose of the program is help the kids find the supports they need to flourish, medical, educational etc etc.

Another part is simply helping the kids have fun and learn about how big and beautiful the world is.

One day we were sitting in a pizza place, and they were playing some really good edm/lofi music and the kids were into it. I knew one of them was musically inclined, so I asked if he’d wanna make some music like this. I got a quick “sure…” from him (big win!), and another kid there looked up and cracked a little smile and gave a thumbs up (another big win!!)

So we hatched a plan to build a little production studio. We went to a pawn shop and found a speaker system with an aux-in; my friend is gonna throw in his old gaming computer. I found a Tascam interface on Kijiji; when I told my mother about the idea, she all but threw her yeti mic at me!

It doesn't matter if they stick with it and become music producers, just that they learn that the world is bigger than what they've been exposed to thus far, that they are capable of doing really cool stuff, and that there is depth (creative and technical) in things that they are interested in that they can participate in and feel. (While these may be things that they know in their heads, we hope that this will help them know in their being and be a seed of inspiration for whatever it is that they find that will list them up out of the places that they are currently.)

So here comes the need for suggestions. (we are working on a windows computer)

1. I would like to start them off on a fully functioning DAW like Ableton Lite /Bitwig 8-track, rather than a program designed to make making music as easy as possible, which ends up slowing the potential for growth. I'd like to introduce midi packs, drawing in midi, soft-synths, hard synths? - microphone placement, keyboards, at first locked to scales, pads, quantization... etc etc as they are ready for each new piece.


2. I would like to start them off with Loop-based production as it gets listenable results the fastest (early wins = enthusiasm = desire to learn more deeply)
a. It also introduces them to chopping up the loops to create something more of their own without having to be to picky about timing concerns.

3. I would like to find the most user-friendly VST's that still allow for decent interaction.
- Playbeat 3 seems to be the best drum machine for this. It has lots of good presets and is clearly and obviously laid out while still providing considerable depth once you start to dig in. Is it the deepest? No, but the most immediately understandable? yes
- I spent days demoing many drum machines to find this one - what I am hoping is that there will be other VSTs that fill this space, for other elements of music-production, that ya'll know about already to help the program along.

I suppose what I am looking for are some suggestions on how I might get these kiddos to make music as fairly quickly but with some degree of intentionality to make sure it feels like they are learning something and the song they'll eventually create reminds them that they are capable to doing something that would have been outside of their previous realm of possibility.

-Just this afternoon, when I showed a youtube video of a guy making a track with Ableton this kiddo's eyes lit up... and that is not a small thing! -

So if you have any thoughts, suggestions, perfect VSTs, perspective blindspots, previous experiences, victories or failures, software, hardware or whatever, I would love to hear them.

Thank you all in advance This is really exciting!

Andrew

[Jac459]

I think Bitwig 8 tracks and Vital would be an awesome start.

And by the way, your project is awesome, I wish you all the possible success....

[Uncle E]

1. I would like to start them off on a fully functioning DAW like Ableton Lite /Bitwig 8-track, rather than a program designed to make making music as easy as possible, which ends up slowing the potential for growth. I'd like to introduce midi packs, drawing in midi, soft-synths, hard synths? - microphone placement, keyboards, at first locked to scales, pads, quantization... etc etc as they are ready for each new piece.

Many companies would be happy to donate a full version for such a worthy cause. If you get Bitwig, here are some demo projects to get you started:

https://www.bitwig.com/sound-content/bi ... ojects-35/

3. I would like to find the most user-friendly VST's that still allow for decent interaction.
- Playbeat 3 seems to be the best drum machine for this. It has lots of good presets and is clearly and obviously laid out while still providing considerable depth once you start to dig in. Is it the deepest? No, but the most immediately understandable? yes
- I spent days demoing many drum machines to find this one - what I am hoping is that there will be other VSTs that fill this space, for other elements of music-production, that ya'll know about already to help the program along.

Pleaybeat is excellent and Audiomodern offers many expansion packs for it for free. With that said, Bitwig and Ableton already provide what you need and you may be adding unnecessary complexity.

I suppose what I am looking for are some suggestions on how I might get these kiddos to make music as fairly quickly but with some degree of intentionality to make sure it feels like they are learning something and the song they'll eventually create reminds them that they are capable to doing something that would have been outside of their previous realm of possibility.

FWIW, I taught a Computers and Music program at a college for over 10 years. I'd say keep things simple, no need to introduce unnecessary extra software. Make things tactile, such as with a Push or Launchpad (you might also consider Maschine or FL Studio with a Fire controller for this reason). Use dynamic mics since it's hard to make mistakes with them.

[i need Help]

I would like to start them off on a fully functioning DAW…

There’s plenty of free DAWs out there you can Google for that offer a lot of functionality even though they are free/lite versions. No need to take the kids to Deep Dive Dubai for beginner swimming lessons.

Also some MIDI controllers come with a lite version of a DAW (Live is probably the most frequent), so that might make the cost of it more palatable. Two birds, one stone as they say.

You can apparently buy one used then use a form on Ableton’s website to get a free license (assuming the product initially comes with Live Lite).

2. I would like to start them off with Loop-based production as it gets listenable results the fastest (early wins = enthusiasm = desire to learn more deeply)

There’s an ungodly amount of free loops/samples available now days. Sample Radar for example.

3. I would like to find the most user-friendly VST's that still allow for decent interaction.

I agree with Uncle E, save the 3rd party plugins for the ones that are still interested after a few weeks. Too much at once can be overwhelming and cause confusion/frustration.

I suppose what I am looking for are some suggestions on how I might get these kiddos to make music as fairly quickly but with some degree of intentionality…

IMO this is gonna be mostly on the instruction side of things. Make a simple curriculum or the like (make a beat, record your voice, DL a sample, chop up said sample, so on and so forth).

I guess just for context, do you have enough production knowledge to instruct the kids or is this a “learn as you go” thing for you as well?

[saint_william]

First of all thank you all for your comments! Already some things I've missed and poking for some more refined thoughts. This is great - please feel free to push back or add to my comments or tell me I'm just plain wrong in one way or another.

Look forward to hearing more thoughts, thanks again!

And by the way, your project is awesome, I wish you all the possible success....

Thank you for your encouragement! Vital is a for sure and I am currently picking up a copy of Bitwig to demo

do you have enough production knowledge to instruct the kids or is this a “learn as you go” thing for you as well?

Very good question: I have a Jazz degree (trumpet), have been producing since early pandemic lockdown, built a pro-amateur recordings studio with a very experienced studio engineer who mentored me through the process for similar purposes but with a considerably larger budget. though never really got to my hands dirty due to changing employment, he has since been coaching me on mixing my own tracks as they come up, -- And I have developed multiple successful learning systems for other areas: language and project management.
So all of that to say a little of both - I am a good/adaptive teacher and I know how these things work practically but not really the depth of long-time professionals.

I am a Maschine + Reaper user neither of which I think are really suitable for this project, Maschine because it is, in fact, too limited in its arrangement mode, and reaper because it would take too much time to customize a coherent workflow and is just not as attractive (I know I know...) as the others, which matters to these kids. Ableton and Bitwig both have the bottom section where all of the instruments its using are clearly displayed and try as I might I cannot get the LBX stripper in Reaper to work.

Pleaybeat is excellent and Audiomodern offers many expansion packs for it for free. With that said, Bitwig and Ableton already provide what you need and you may be adding unnecessary complexity.

The thing that I like about Playbeat is that it has the 8 tracks laid out in big dots on one screen and you can see where the beat is because the dots change colour. I feel like this is more simple to understand than using the midi editor/ piano roll as I can minimize the main DAW and focus on the drums and programming in very clear window.

So I would be using it as a teaching tool as well as pretty fun VST.

Make things tactile, such as with a Push or Launchpad (you might also consider Maschine or FL Studio with a Fire controller for this reason

I hadn't thought of FL Studio, that plus the Akai fire would be awesome! Unfortunately, we're in proof-of-concept mode so it's all out of pocket for me and the other guy at this point. Once we find out if the kiddos are engaged by the project we'll be able to find some funding for this is would assume.
- I guess the issue is whether starting them on Ableton/Bitwig and then trying to move to the potentially "more appropriate" option later when we have funding would not be ideal... hmmmm

There’s an ungodly amount of free loops/samples available now days.

Thanks for the link on the free loops, I have really only dealt with Tracklib and VST's at this point! This is great!
-------------

[jules99]

Ableton is very engaged in supporting causes like yours, check out their "classroom" program: https://www.ableton.com/en/classroom/

I'd also recommend combining the use of a DAW with a mobile companion app, both FL and Ableton have official ones, as they're practically glued to a smartphone screen anyways.

If it's kids you're teaching, however, take a good look at FL Studio. Because it is very likely that if anyone of them has had any experience in beatmaking, it's with FL. It's THE DAW teens use if you look around Instagram and Tik Tok. I'm not advocating for it on a basis of better of worse, simply because, if these kids start researching what their EDM/trap/pop producer idols produce with, it's going to be FL.

I tend to agree with Uncle E in keeping it extra simple, but if you're looking for the most user-friendly VST, take a look at Arturia Pigments. It brings a very well-designed user interface that clearly shows how modulation in a synthesizer works and isn't just a page full of knobs.

[whyterabbyt]

1. I would like to start them off on a fully functioning DAW like Ableton Lite /Bitwig 8-track

I have a Live Lite 11 license you can have. If you're willing to corroborate the organisation somehow, and can set up an Abelton account with an email address associated with it, I can transfer it.

However, its possibly worth checking the system requirements first, just to be on the safe side.

Windows 10 (Build 1909 and later)
Intel® Core™ i5 processor or an AMD multi-core processor.
8 GB RAM

Note: Live 11 is 64-bit only and is not supported on Linux.

[Septimon]

Ableton is very engaged in supporting causes like yours, check out their "classroom" program: https://www.ableton.com/en/classroom/

I can confirm this. I teach in a public school and the cooperation with ableton is awesome. Ask them for a Live Intro licence. In the past they even gave Push 1 Controllers to certain projects.
They have also very good tutorials. Live is a bit harder to learn compared to FL, but i think it‘s worth it.

[sjm]

If the kids have their own computers, I'd factor in the fact that they'd probably learn the most and make the most progress if they can use whatever software you go with at home. To me, that immediately rules out anything expensive - including software where the Lite version is essentially free, but severely limited. The kids would want to upgrade at some point if they get hooked, so I think you want to factor in the actual cost of doing so.

FL Studio has a very generous trial mode where the only real limitation is that you can't open up projects saved in the trial version in the trial version. You can open up the projects in a licensed version. And projects saved with the licensed version will open in the trial version. That means that kids can go home, futz around with the project without limitations (as long as they don't shut down FL Studio), and bring the project back and open it up on the full version. IL do offer educational licenses, but I don't know the details or whether you'd qualify.

Along with Reaper and Cakewalk, it's got to be the easiest and most affordable route to getting a fully featured DAW that the kids could also use outside the classroom. I'd avoid Reaper (which you've already said you'd do), because as powerful as it is, it's not exactly beginner-friendly. With FL Studio, you'd be up and running and creating beats in the first lesson using the step sequencer and a bunch of drum samples. Plus, it's got the best piano roll by a country mile, which makes a huge difference if you don't have access to a MIDI controller - either for cost reasons or due to not being able to play keys. That's a really important consideration if the kids will be able to work on their projects at home.

The downside is that it can be a little tricky for people coming from a more traditional background to understand how FL works - it's a little different from your traditional linear DAW that is basically set up like a traditional console. FL doesn't work like that. The playlist is completely independent of the routing (most DAWs have each lane in the playlist routed to a single mixer channel). Routing is from channel rack to mixer, and "clips" (called patterns in FL Studio) can contain any number of instruments. Once you've wrapped your head around it (takes 30 minutes if you get a good teacher), it's not a big deal IMO. Just be aware that if you go the FL Studio route, you might need to spend a little time rethinking your assumptions about how things work. There might be a learning curve there that will be probably be a lot harder for you than for the kids if you've spent your whole life working with multi-tracks and the typical console paradigm.

It's definitely one of the cheapest way for the kids to go legit with the producer Edition coming in at $200. That's a decent chunk of change for the underpriveleged, but it includes updates forever, so it's a one-time expense. And the trial will get you a long way, especially if you can regularly open and saved projects in a licensed version so they can be opened in the trial. The Fruity Edition is $100, but is severely limited and I can't really recommend it unless you never ever want to be able to record audio. Reaper is cheaper, and gets you 2 versions of updates for a very, very affordable price. I don't think any of the other options out there - aside from freebies - will get you anywhere close to the same bang for buck. The risk if you go with something else is that the kids will have learnt to use software that they probably can't afford to use themselves for a long time. So they'd end up using something else anyway, and have a certain amount of relearning to do.

The other option is Cakewalk. It's free, but again has the disadvantage that it's nowhere near as easy to use for piano roll heroes clicking in things with the mouse. That said, you can probably get second hand MIDI controllers for peanuts/free. However, there's an additional learning curve there in learning to play the keys as well as learning the software. For immediate accessibility, I'd personally go with FL Studio. And the fact that all the tuts for the genres they are interested in are all based around FL Studio is another big argument in its favour.

So if your requirements are something cheap, relatively easy to learn, can be used at home by the kids and offers a great experience without any additional hardware, FL Studio is probably the best fit overall. It also comes with its own ASIO driver that will work with anything (including on-board audio chips), and is easy to set up. It can add a bunch of latency which makes recording a pain though.

[Schnickschnack]

Yes, FL-Studio Producer Edition seems suitable for that. You can add free plugins by Valhalla and Tal for example - they are good and easy to work with, but I think you dont really need any 3rd party plugins. Also about the drum sequencer: I think the channel rack is as easy to use as Playbeat, that you have mentioned.

But if you still think a seperate drum sequencer would be better, I suggest you to look at Atlas 2. The GUI is simple, definitely understandable for young persons and not much more expensive than Playbeat. The sample-map is impressive and makes sample browsing a joy, instead of a pain in the ass, especially with the randomization-kit-function.

Gear like Push, Maschine and all is nice, but not necessary. A cheap midi keyboard with some drumpads would be cool. But if I had someone that I wanted to teach about making music, I would avoid creating gear lust (hardware+software) as much as possible, and focus on how much impact the basic things have and how cool it actually is to make music by using a most minimalistic setup and just staying in the box for the start. I would focus on things like how much possibilities you have by learning sampling techniques, how effective it is to pay attention to ADSR, velocity, note length - and in general: the aspects of composing, because this is what actualy makes a musical piece special and personal.

Good luck with your project and uplaod some beats here by your students, when they have made something!

[Jac459]

Hello !

I was the one answering with bitwig, because .... I love bitwig.
But after thinking twice, from a educative, ease of use and still capacity point of view, I think by far the best choice is .....REASON 12.

Reason 12 offer a model copied on reality so you are actually pluging in real virtual cables into real virtual devices.
It is super fun and engaging and this way, switching from virtual to physical world is smooth.

Cost wise they have reason+ so you can have tons of stuffs, sounds and all without any investment.And I am sure that by contacting them they can do some offers...

I remembered of reason because I read it is used in many sound engineering schools.

[donkey tugger]

One of my friends runs a similar organisation which though specializes in music related activities, including production using Ableton;

https://clothcatleeds.org.uk/courses/vi ... eton-live/

I know Ableton have been quite supportive of them. Maybe worth dropping them a line to see what advice they can offer on equipment, training material etc, best practices etc?

PM me if you want and I'll sort you out contacts etc.

[shockenkleid]

Learn to play an instrument instead. much more fun and engaging for kids, DAW's and VST's will bore them.. Some cheap guitars, keyboards, drums and a music teacher will make learning music extremely fun.

here's a great starter keyboard $49 with 300 sounds
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... e-keyboard

All 300 sounds Demo:

[vurt]

my foster brother did something like this at the local studio. two women set it all up, got the funding (lottery and government, here in the uk) arranged the venue.
then they found locals who had bits of skills, rather than one person with all the skills.

i did a bit with them for sound design for a short film, teaching them basic foley techniques.
others taught them to play guitar or keys, to sing.
then at the end of each year, they put on a show.

sadly covid messed up the venue and funding has become difficult, but they still get some things done, because people out there, do care, give time for free.

i guess what im saying is, im sure you gave many contacts as a musician, maybe they can help?

[audiojunkie]

If you've already got a computer and an audio interface, everything else can be completely free:

Open Source:

AV Linux

Ardour
Giada
LMMS
Audacity
Mixx
Kwave
Polyphone
LoopAuditioneer

LinuxSampler
Odin 2
Surge-XT
Airwindows Suite
Linux Studio Plugins
Yoshimi
AVL Drums
Cardinal
Guitarix.vst
GxPlugins.lv2
x42-plugins
MDA-LV2
DrumGizmo
Sfizz
Dexed
FluidSynthPlug
Fluida.lv2
FluidSynthVST
Monique
Helm
Dragonfly Reverbs suite
LibreArp
Elephant DSP Room Reverb
Mverb
CAPS-LV2
Ninjas2
ADLPlug
Fire
GeonKick
PaulXStretch

Freeware:

OcenAudio

Xhip Synth
Nil's K1v
Sitala
Tal-NoizeMaker
Vital
Tyrell N6
Xhip Effects
Hypercyclic
Decent Sampler
Speedrum Lite
Apricot
Fluctus
Tal-Filter
Tal-Reverb-4
Tal-Chorus-LX
Tal-Vocoder
Zebralette
Podolski
Triple Cheese
Beatzille
Protoverb