Reason 12 is here

[jens]

you Mac guys

Now now... we don 't want to jump to conclusions, do we?

[EnochLight]

Instead of always blaming the developers, you Mac guys should perhaps think a little bit about why you still support an OS which breaks compatibility with nearly every update... from time to time bringing in new CPU´s to break compatibility completely and to make it not too boring...

You are whining 6 month to a year about developers giving a shit to solve your selfmade problems just to go ahead to buy the next Mac...

The big question is who is really silly... you or the 3rd party devs???
On top of that you expect from the devs to always fix compatibility issues for the same money the people pay who don´t cause these issues... that´s not very fair...

I would wish Mac guys would have to pay an extra fee for every update developers have to make to fix comapitibility issues Apple causes over and over and over again...
Extra work... extra costs... it´s actually quite easy!
Perhaps you wake up then...

[Jac459]

Instead of always blaming the developers, you Mac guys should perhaps think a little bit about why you still support an OS which breaks compatibility with nearly every update... from time to time bringing in new CPU´s to break compatibility completely and to make it not too boring...
Perhaps you wake up then...

That's funny how people with very little understanding of a topic can comment in such an aggressive way.

On the many incorrect things you said, just a few points that I invite you to google yourself:

1 - M1 is not a cpu change. It is a cpu architecture change (from x86 to arm).
2 - There is only 2 main cpu architectures in the market (so no, it doesn't happen often).
3 - the first to intent a migration to arm was microsoft with Windows RT, 10 years ago. It failed (unfortunately).
4 - Microsoft will do the same move than apple, they are just doing it slower because the snapdragon product they use is not powerful enough.
5 - Windows on ARM WILL also break compatibility and requires emulation (there is no way around actually).

Here an extract from Microsoft website:
"PCs powered by Arm provide great application compatibility and allow you to run your existing unmodified x86 win32 applications. Arm apps run natively without any emulation, while x86 and x64 apps run under emulation on Arm devices.Nov 10, 2022".

I suggest you document yourself next time before advising others...

[EnochLight]

4 - Microsoft will do the same move than apple, they are just doing it slower because the snapdragon product they use is not powerful enough.
5 - Windows on ARM WILL also break compatibility and requires emulation (there is no way around actually).

While I agree the rant on blaming Mac users was completely off the mark, disparaging Microsoft/Windows is just as off the mark. Let me explain: rarely does a Windows update point blank BREAK your plugins/DAW. Windows has basically ran on the same architecture for over 20 years (switching to 64-bit CPU's notwithstanding).

The OP isn't wrong when they stated that MacOS updates frequently break things. It's just the way things work with Apple. And I say this as a (former) Mac owner.

[SLiC]

3rd party developers are under no obligation to make their software run on apples new architecture, there is no entitlement, its just good business for them (in most cases) to have software they can sell to the widest possible user base...Entirely up to the developer and in their own time, but if they don't do it promptly they may loose a small part of their user base (same argument with VST3 on older plugs)

[machinesworking]

Instead of always blaming the developers, you Mac guys should perhaps think a little bit about why you still support an OS which breaks compatibility with nearly every update... from time to time bringing in new CPU´s to break compatibility completely and to make it not too boring...

You are whining 6 month to a year about developers giving a shit to solve your selfmade problems just to go ahead to buy the next Mac...

The big question is who is really silly... you or the 3rd party devs???
On top of that you expect from the devs to always fix compatibility issues for the same money the people pay who don´t cause these issues... that´s not very fair...

I would wish Mac guys would have to pay an extra fee for every update developers have to make to fix comapitibility issues Apple causes over and over and over again...
Extra work... extra costs... it´s actually quite easy!
Perhaps you wake up then...

Says the guy who couldn't get Digital Performer stable on his PC, a not untypical PC issue, and ranted for pages on numerous threads in a half dozen forums about it non stop for months on end, after getting a refund from MOTU.

For the record, when Macs were less popular in music 20 odd years ago this happened, you would sometimes pay more for cross platform software, not necessarily because it was harder for developers to code for, but because sales were not as high so they charged more for it. That's capitalism, now that Mac OS makes up to 50% of sales for a company like Reason Studios they flatly aren't adopting your strategy, because the difficulty of keeping up with Mac OS does not outweigh the doubling of sales that coding for the Mac OS GUI brings.

KVR is a unique place in this respect, developers here love kvetching about Mac OS, feeding all you emotional types with your anti capitalist pro monopoly rants that serve nothing but sports team level partisan nonsense. I wish it was different that way, but it is what it is.

[EnochLight]

now that Mac OS makes up to 50% of sales for a company like Reason Studios

[machinesworking]

3rd party developers are under no obligation to make their software run on apples new architecture, there is no entitlement, its just good business for them (in most cases) to have software they can sell to the widest possible user base...Entirely up to the developer and in their own time, but if they don't do it promptly they may loose a small part of their user base (same argument with VST3 on older plugs)

They'd lose more than a small part of their base, Reason and Live have always had a massive Mac user base. In 2006 when sales of Macs were much lower a developer from Ableton mentioned to me in person off the record that sales were 50/50 Mac to PC. Some cross platform software is probably not that high, but Reason and Live most definitely are.

[machinesworking]

now that Mac OS makes up to 50% of sales for a company like Reason Studios

[img]dumb meme[ /img]

It's OK to be wrong sometimes. I don't know why KVR people think everyone uses a PC for music? it's not 2005 anymore, and even then Macs were still far more common among musicians than literally any other field.

I'll say it again, at that time a developer from Ableton flatly stated that sales were 50/50 Mac and PC. This hasn't gotten worse for Apple, considering Mac sales in general and percentage of people using Macs have nearly doubled since then.

[EnochLight]

now that Mac OS makes up to 50% of sales for a company like Reason Studios

[img]spot on meme[ /img]

It's OK to be wrong sometimes. I don't know why KVR people think everyone uses a PC for music? it's not 2005 anymore, and even then Macs were still far more common among musicians than literally any other field.

I'll say it again, at that time a developer from Ableton flatly stated that sales were 50/50 Mac and PC. This hasn't gotten worse for Apple, considering Mac sales in general and percentage of people using Macs have nearly doubled since then.

There's been no evidence to support the assumption that 50% of Reasoners are on Mac, is all I'm saying.

[Jac459]

While I agree the rant on blaming Mac users was completely off the mark, disparaging Microsoft/Windows is just as off the mark. Let me explain: rarely does a Windows update point blank BREAK your plugins/DAW. Windows has basically ran on the same architecture for over 20 years (switching to 64-bit CPU's notwithstanding).

The OP isn't wrong when they stated that MacOS updates frequently break things. It's just the way things work with Apple. And I say this as a (former) Mac owner.

First I need to thank you because I am not a native English speaker ans you just taught me "disparaging" as a word.

I think you misunderstood my point. I am not an apple fan (I have an android and I own 2 Microsoft surfaces) but I like facts
I am an engineer and an IT. And saying that m1 is a bad thing of apple is just false.
This is a cpu architecture switch that is necessary in the market and Microsoft will go there too with Windows. And the compatibility issues will be the same.

And I was never talking about macos vs Windows because I am lacking data, (and I don't think it is the point when we are talking about m1).

[machinesworking]

now that Mac OS makes up to 50% of sales for a company like Reason Studios

[img]childish 4chan meme[ /img]

It's OK to be wrong sometimes. I don't know why KVR people think everyone uses a PC for music? it's not 2005 anymore, and even then Macs were still far more common among musicians than literally any other field.

I'll say it again, at that time a developer from Ableton flatly stated that sales were 50/50 Mac and PC. This hasn't gotten worse for Apple, considering Mac sales in general and percentage of people using Macs have nearly doubled since then.

There's been no evidence to support the assumption that 50% of Reasoners are on Mac, is all I'm saying.

Even there you're very very likely wrong. Propellerheads were always cross platform, since v1 it's always seemed a straight split. In fact outside of KVR there really is no area either online or in studios, on stage etc. where PC's are more common. In fact it's the opposite, I see about 20% PCs at shows in professional and home studios, and I live 30 miles from Redmond WA and Microsoft HQ.

[Jac459]

25-30 years ago there was a technical reason why macos was better than Windows for musicians. It was the way the multitasking was operating and the lag it was alloying on midi drivers...
Not that the multitasking of macos was "better" it was just better for this specific scenario.

[machinesworking]

While I agree the rant on blaming Mac users was completely off the mark, disparaging Microsoft/Windows is just as off the mark. Let me explain: rarely does a Windows update point blank BREAK your plugins/DAW. Windows has basically ran on the same architecture for over 20 years (switching to 64-bit CPU's notwithstanding).

The OP isn't wrong when they stated that MacOS updates frequently break things. It's just the way things work with Apple. And I say this as a (former) Mac owner.

First I need to thank you because I am not a native English speaker ans you just taught me "disparaging" as a word.

I think you misunderstood my point. I am not an apple fan (I have an android and I own 2 Microsoft surfaces) but I like facts
I am an engineer and an IT. And saying that m1 is a bad thing of apple is just false.
This is a cpu architecture switch that is necessary in the market and Microsoft will go there too with Windows. And the compatibility issues will be the same.

And I was never talking about macos vs Windows because I am lacking data, (and I don't think it is the point when we are talking about m1).

One thing that I think a lot of people are flatly ignoring about this last switch is that it's likely final. M1 is an end game, Apple are in complete control of their own process now, there's just far less reason for them to rock the boat than there was when they're switching from PPC to Intel, then from Intel to Arm / Apple Silicon. Major changes like Intel to M1 requiring translation layers like Rosetta, and arguing, debates about how GPU manufacturers work with Apple, likely are the main reasons that things get rocky for developers with Mac OS, considering every time it's the OS updates near a transition that are the most disruptive (Catalina etc.), I don't think I'm wrong about this.

So in the next couple years things will likely massively calm down for developers working with Mac OS, but like you mention, Windows and PCs will heat up, since lower power consuming SOC Arm chips are going to dominate the market, and Windows etc. will need to develop ways to optimize for that platform and not look massively slower than Mac OS on their own chips.

The way this works at KVR and other places though is this transition will be "glorious" and better than the sh*t show that Apple did because reasons!

[machinesworking]

25-30 years ago there was a technical reason why macos was better than Windows for musicians. It was the way the multitasking was operating and the lag it was alloying on midi drivers...
Not that the multitasking of macos was "better" it was just better for this specific scenario.

Honestly though it always required a super careful Extension setup to have a rock solid Mac OS 9 setup. You would have one for internet etc. and one for music. There's a reason multitasking took off. With OS X and it's multitasking OS, MIDI and audio drivers are built in to the OS, so yeah at first it would be more stable etc. than Windows.

At this point there's little difference though, audio and MIDI are so slow that any limitations in the software is fixed by how fast the hardware is. It's actually a great time to be into DAWs and music regardless of OS!