Why did you leave Studio One?

[jamcat]

A quick Google search for “studio one PDC issues” turns up quite a few hits for v5 and v6.

I would suspect that if it's a PDC issue, then it's being caused by certain plugins which are not reporting their delay correctly.

I did a search for “studio one PDC issues” and the top hit was from the same guy from this thread, posting the same thing on Gearspace. There seems to be a smattering of these reports going back to V3 and V4, too. So it's pretty inconclusive that it is a new or real problem that was introduced in Studio One 5. Again, I think this sounds like a problem with the plugins in question, possibly not reporting their delay correctly.

You can see what latency your plugins report to Studio One by opening the Performance meter, and clicking ☑ Show Devices.

[syntonica]

You are incorrect on all of that. Stop listening to programmers who can't figure out VST3 and get away from their cult of fail.

Think about it: if they can't properly code VST3 plugins, why would you trust their VST2 plugins?
Everyone else is doing just fine.

More falsehoods and false equivalencies. There's a reason VST3 has been out for 15 years and SB has to drag devs to it, kicking and screaming. It just plain stinks.

[jamcat]

VST3 had much faster adoption when it was introduced than either VST1.0 or VST2. Steinberg had to end DX support in Cubase to get most developers on to VST. They got all the same whining back then, too. Then they got even more whining when they went to 64-bit with VST2.4. The real issue is programmers don't like to have to learn new tricks.

Are you a plugin developer yourself, or do you just carry water for the ones who can't code?

[syntonica]

Steinberg had to do the same thing for VST2 by ending DX support in Cubase. They got all the same whining. Then they got even more whining when they went to 64-bit with VST2.4. The real issue is programmers don't like to have to learn new tricks.

Are you a developer yourself, or do you just parrot the ones who can't code?

I'm a programmer and composer/musician. Developer is to computers as producer is to music.

VST2.4 added support for 64-bit audio. It never deprecated 32-bit. I think all the hullabaloo about 64-bit was that programmers were using processor-specific 32-bit tricks to speed up their plugins and changing to a total 64-bit path would be a PITA. I don't know about DX support as I'm about 90% Mac, but I suspect that it was missing features that SB needed and didn't fit in with their vision of how plugins should work.

As for the devs that "got" VST3, I think you'll find a very good majority of them use JUCE, iPlug, or some other framework or wrapper to generate all the necessary formats. You'll also find some midi plugins out there that will never be available as VST3 as what they do cannot reliably be replicated in the VST3 format.

Basically, SB wants Cubase itself to handle everything midi-related and plugins to just process audio. It's a difference in paradigms and they've repeatedly started that VST2 was not made to do the things that third parties made it do, although it's a very open and flexible format. VST3 is not.

If you follow the CLAP saga, you'll see all the valid complaints (and probably a few invalid complaints) about the Big 3 formats: VST, AU, AAX.

[jamcat]

I've seen this claim about JUCE. It seems to come exclusively from the CLAP boosters. I don't think it's true. The big developers don't use it, with the exception of Arturia, who use JUCE for their GUI framework only. And pretty much everyone supports VST3 now. So everyone would also have to be using JUCE, which just doesn't pass the smell test. Also, the vast majority of VST3 plugins work without issue.

Just because a couple vocal devs on KVR can't get their plugins working right on VST3, this doesn't mean no one else can, either.

I don't know about DX support as I'm about 90% Mac, but I suspect that it was missing features that SB needed and didn't fit in with their vision of how plugins should work.

I'm sure Steinberg would say the same thing about VST2, which is why they developed VST3.

You'll also find some midi plugins out there that will never be available as VST3 as what they do cannot reliably be replicated in the VST3 format.

As I suggested in a CLAP thread, someone should develop a really useful suite of free MIDI plugins for CLAP. That would actually give DAW developers a compelling reason to support CLAP. Because right now, there really isn't one.

[Kalamata Kid]

Would be great to have midi fx that work only with Clap.
Will Steinberg ever adapt Clap into Cubase?

[BKSchatzki]

Would be great to have midi fx that work only with Clap.
Will Steinberg ever adapt Clap into Cubase?

Can't say for sure but unlikely. They don't support AU's on Cubase Mac, so it seems the VST people
will continue to insist on VST.

[Kalamata Kid]

Cubase was low on my possible DAW list due to a couple of issues I have with it.
(damn it is a really good DAW)
Went down a notch that it will likely never support Clap.
Also no VST2.

My current top three
Studio One 5. Waiting of a sale to update to V6.
Reaper 6. Not multi-touch capable.
FL Studio 21. Hope they will add ARA2.

[BONES]

First, I believe his problem is the result of using the VST2 versions of his plugins. VST2 is an inferior format that isn’t sample-accurate, unlike VST3.

That's a big call. What are you basing it on? My experience with VST 3 is that it causes way more problems than VST 2.x. I only use VST 3 versions of a plugin when there are no 2.x versions available. Since I did that, stability in Studio One has improved considerably.

I'll give you an example of where VST 3 fails in Studio One, at least. Try a plugin like Schwa's Olga, which has no patch management of its own and relies on the host to provide it. The VST 2.4 versions work fine but it seems VST 3 doesn't support that feature, so you have no access to the factory patches in Studio One with the VST 3 version. How is that an improvement?

You are incorrect on all of that. Stop listening to programmers who can't figure out VST3 and get away from their cult of fail.

You're not seriously suggesting that we should not listen to programmers on matters of programming, are you? That's a losing strategy, right out of the gate.

[jamcat]

First, I believe his problem is the result of using the VST2 versions of his plugins. VST2 is an inferior format that isn’t sample-accurate, unlike VST3.

That's a big call. What are you basing it on?

I'm basing it on the fact that VST2 isn't sample-accurate or robust, and on my own experience with phase and sync issues with VST2 plugins, which I outlined.

I'll give you an example of where VST 3 fails in Studio One, at least. Try a plugin like Schwa's Olga, which has no patch management of its own and relies on the host to provide it. The VST 2.4 versions work fine but it seems VST 3 doesn't support that feature, so you have no access to the factory patches in Studio One with the VST 3 version. How is that an improvement?

You've used this one example before, and I still don't quite understand it.

Studio One loads .preset for VST2/3 and .fxp/.fxb for VST2. These are the standard formats.
Are you saying that the Olga includes an .fxb bank for VST2, but no .preset bank is included for VST3? This sounds like a careless oversight by Schwa, not a flaw to VST3.

But why not just export the factory patches from the VST2 version as .presets?
You can do that, you know.

Either way, this doesn't illustrate a stability issue with VST3. Just poor design by the developer.

You're not seriously suggesting that we should not listen to programmers on matters of programming, are you? That's a losing strategy, right out of the gate.

You would be right if all programmers were making the same claim. But they're not. A small minority are. I'm merely suggesting people listen to the vast majority who know what they're doing, instead of the few who fail and whine about it.

[BONES]

You've used this one example before, and I still don't quite understand it.

It's not about loading preset files, it's about the factory presets that ship internally within the plugin. 99% of plugins have their own preset management so you can access those but some, like Olga, do not. See below that there is nowhere to change presets in Olga's GUI -



With the VST 2 version, you can access the factory presets from the toolbar above the instrument GUI, to the right of the Studio One preset drop-down. When you load the VST 3 version, you don't get that and you can't change presets at all. I assume it would be the same problem in other hosts, I can't see why it would be unique to Studio One.

Why not just export the factory patches from the VST2 version as .presets?
You can do that, you know.

Why the f**k would I do that when I can load the VST 2 version and have it work as it is supposed to?

Either way, this doesn't illustrate a stability issue with VST3. Just poor design by the developer.

It's an old plugin, it was quite common at the time. Stability issues are harder to pin down but I can tell you for a fact that every project that causes Studio One to crash on load or close has VST 3 plugins in it and if I get rid of those VST3s, it stops causing crashes. Similarly, projects with no VST 3 plugins never give me problems at all. That's just the way it is - using VST3 plugins causes problems that VST 2 plugins do not.

would be right if all programmers were making the same claim. But they're not. A small minority are. I'm merely suggesting people listen to the vast majority who know what they're doing, instead of the few who fail and whine about it.

That's interesting because a) I can't recall ever hearing anyone say anything positive about VST3 and b) pretty much every developer put off doing VST3 version of their plugins until Steinberg forced their hands. Don't forget, VST 3 came out in 2008 but nobody really paid any attention until Steinberg dropped support for VST 2 in 2013 and stopped distributing that SDK. Even now, how many vendors are supporting VST 3.7? Even 3.5 seems to be largely ignored by developers. That doesn't sound like something that makes our lives better or easier.

[ozinga]

With the VST 2 version, you can access the factory presets from the toolbar above the instrument GUI, to the right of the Studio One preset drop-down. When you load the VST 3 version, you don't get that and you can't change presets at all. I assume it would be the same problem in other hosts, I can't see why it would be unique to Studio One.

Shows in Cubase 12

[Weasel-Boy]

With the VST 2 version, you can access the factory presets from the toolbar above the instrument GUI, to the right of the Studio One preset drop-down. When you load the VST 3 version, you don't get that and you can't change presets at all. I assume it would be the same problem in other hosts, I can't see why it would be unique to Studio One.

Shows in Cubase 12

The VST3 version shows in Cubase 12 under Rosetta on an M1 Macbook as well.

OlgaVST3 on M1 in Cubase.jpg

[wuworld]

Would be great to have midi fx that work only with Clap.
Will Steinberg ever adapt Clap into Cubase?

Judging from Greg Ondo's comments, I would say no.

[oneway]

I left Studio One due to them not supporting a lot of hardware older than 2 years and recently had to reinstall v3 on an old computer to grab some patches from an archived project that didn’t load properly in new versions.

It’s not that old a product and it couldn’t activate properly with their server.

Their products are great but I’m seeing a pattern here. Filing this one under “they’re unreliable.”