Waves...smh

[bermudagold]

Here’s a different perspective.

Waves did not steer the market. They merely responded to the commoditization of plugins that was occurring naturally due to over-saturation of the market.

Now Waves has reached full market saturation from constant sales and needs to generate new revenue from the same pool of existing customers.

Pro Tools users on Mac is Waves core base of diehard customers going back decades. Pro Tools only recently became M1 compatible, and Waves AAX plugins are not yet available natively for Apple Silicon. But they are probably readying the release of V15 with full native support.

Native AAX support on Apple Silicon is Waves’ leverage to corral their core customers into the subscription ghetto.

Yeah, this sounds closer to the truth.

the two were never mutually exclusive...most of what jamcat stated can be true and is likely true, but that doesn't change the fact that they clearly steered the market...this was not an invisible hand situation, there was nothing natural about it...its fairly obvious from the anecdotal data, which I'm sure would be backed up by industrial data, that the precipitous price drop across the market would not have happened in that time frame without the waves pivot...that is what large players and monopolies do, manipulate markets

the current market is driven by hobbyist, a large influx introduced by the covid lockdown...that came on the tails of a dramatic downturn in the pro market...but most hobbyist don't understand the resources and time required to develop and maintain software; run an online business, and the ROI required to make it worthwhile...that's why its interesting companies like GForce have decided to ignore the market manipulation and refuse to devalue their IP...it will be interesting to see how that works out

[jamcat]

I'm not surprised at all, since they were using sort of subscription model even before, it just wasn't called that.

Not really. People had complaints about WUP, but you only needed to pay it as needed to update to new versions. You still kept what you got even when your WUP was expired.

Now, you lose everything when your subscription runs out. You don’t get to keep your investment. If you have V14 now and you get the sub when V15 comes out, you go back to V14 when your subscription runs out.

This is considerably worse than WUP. You also no longer get the second license that WUP gave you.

[jamcat]

It’s 'only' $15 a month depending on the plugins you want to use. I only use two of their plugins anymore, the SSL Ev2 and the SSL Bus Comp. Both of those plugins, put me in the $25 a month sub (the $15 sub has the old E channel and no bus compressor). I occasionally use the API EQ's and 2500 (I own the Studio Collection) so yeah not about to drop $250+ a year to use two plugins I paid $20 each for when I have two or three other SSL channels and compressors to choose from that have permanent licenses.

Get the Brainworx SSL 4000 E channel. It’s just as good. It just doesn’t have quite as much preamp gain.

It’s $39.99 right now and you can use this $20 voucher until the end of the month to get it for $19.99: MEGA-20-OFF

Pay once and be done. Get the Townhouse compressor and the Lindell Audio 50 series, and be done with Waves forever.

[noiseboyuk]

Waves AAX plugins are not yet available natively for Apple Silicon. But they are probably readying the release of V15 with full native support.

??? Waves v14 is AAX silicon Native AFAIK. V13 is Rosetta only.

[ghettosynth]

Here’s a different perspective.

Waves did not steer the market. They merely responded to the commoditization of plugins that was occurring naturally due to over-saturation of the market.

Now Waves has reached full market saturation from constant sales and needs to generate new revenue from the same pool of existing customers.

Pro Tools users on Mac is Waves core base of diehard customers going back decades. Pro Tools only recently became M1 compatible, and Waves AAX plugins are not yet available natively for Apple Silicon. But they are probably readying the release of V15 with full native support.

Native AAX support on Apple Silicon is Waves’ leverage to corral their core customers into the subscription ghetto.

Yeah, this sounds closer to the truth.

the two were never mutually exclusive...most of what jamcat stated can be true and is likely true, but that doesn't change the fact that they clearly steered the market...this was not an invisible hand situation, there was nothing natural about it...its fairly obvious from the anecdotal data, which I'm sure would be backed up by industrial data, that the precipitous price drop across the market would not have happened in that time frame without the waves pivot...that is what large players and monopolies do, manipulate markets

I'm not sure that I agree. I can search my own posts here and observe that the Waves $29 price trend came quite a few years after the no-brainer pricing trend. My take on it is that they were following the market. Now, if others felt pressure by them, then I have no data to argue with that, but, the era of the $20 to $40 plugin precedes their $29 everywhere trend. The first Waves plugins that I purchased were between 2012 and 2014 and they were not $29. Waves had sales yes, but for many years you had to spend about $100 to get a Waves plugin on release.

I don't feel like searching but I'm pretty sure that PA's no-brainers and bargain basement coupon discounts preceded Waves as well as Arturia's $99 upgrade and even NI's bargain upgrades for Komplete. In fact, I distinctly remember making the case for Komplete here on KVR because the cost, per product was so cheap. At that time it was industry leading and far better than Waves $29. IIRC, in fact, their across the board $29 pricing came far later.

I think that you're applying way to much of a spin on this. I seem to remember that the transition happened much sooner and Waves did not lead the market.

[jamcat]

Waves AAX plugins are not yet available natively for Apple Silicon. But they are probably readying the release of V15 with full native support.

??? Waves v14 is AAX silicon Native AFAIK. V13 is Rosetta only.

V14 is Silicon native for VST and AU. Not AAX. Because Pro Tools was not Silicon native when V14 came out, so V14 couldn’t be either.

Waves plugins load and work in the following DAWs within Apple Rosetta 2:

V14 plugins:

• Pro Tools 2022.4

https://www.waves.com/support/waves-wit ... processors

[dj ray]

I anticipated this sort of thing a long time ago and started moving away from Waves. I am sure many of you did too. It was really just the L2, the RenVox and RenBass that were unique in what they did (for a time anyway).

But no longer. The L2 has tons of of competition (I don't even use a limiter on the final buss anymore, preferring to use the Inflator - smoother sound), and I never quite trusted the RenBass - too easy to overcook. That left the RenVox. I have to say it's still top of the pops for that sort of thing, but you could use any analogue style compressor with a gate, and get the same effect. I wish someone would have a go at it though.

As far as the other FX are concerned, there is plenty of competition from Baby Audio, Arturia, Sound Toys, D16, PSP, Fabfilter, Softube and Brainworx. Softube used to be pretty pricey but I have most of their stuff now (usually on sale), and Brainworx has excellent SSL models. Cytomic has THE SSL compressor, and I've had it for ages. It's a classic.

Frankly, I am not too bothered. I still have my Waves stuff, and it works fine. There are now plenty of superb alternatives, and with AI and intelligent plugins like the outstanding Gullfoss, we are in a sort of golden age of audio plugins. Things are moving on from pretty pictures of hardware most of us never even owned.

Thanks for the memories, Waves. I wish them luck with their new subscription model. Who knows. They might decide to do both ala Plugin Alliance.

We all knew this was coming.

[noiseboyuk]

Waves AAX plugins are not yet available natively for Apple Silicon. But they are probably readying the release of V15 with full native support.

??? Waves v14 is AAX silicon Native AFAIK. V13 is Rosetta only.

V14 is Silicon native for VST and AU. Not AAX. Because Pro Tools was not Silicon native when V14 came out, so V14 couldn’t be either.

Waves plugins load and work in the following DAWs within Apple Rosetta 2:

V14 plugins:

• Pro Tools 2022.4

https://www.waves.com/support/waves-wit ... processors

Multiple users reporting it works natively: https://duc.avid.com/showpost.php?p=266 ... stcount=92

[noiseboyuk]

Multiple users reporting it works natively: https://duc.avid.com/showpost.php?p=266 ... stcount=92

Here’s more confirmation that V14 does work natively on silicon AAX - https://duc.avid.com/showpost.php?p=266 ... tcount=147

What I don’t know is when it went silicon native, and why Waves’ website hasn’t been updated with the info. I’ve asked on the DUC for info.

EDIT reply here - yes, v14 is AAX Silicon Native. https://duc.avid.com/showpost.php?p=266 ... stcount=46 . Waves just don’t want you to know that, seemingly.

[jamcat]

Ok, thanks for clearing that up. I had read on GearSpace that AAX wasn’t native.

[Compyfox]

I stand corrected on UAD Native plugins.
Apparently, they now also offer perpetual licenses, albeit pricey. I do need to do some more digging on that end. Because I've always had certain tools on my wishlist, but disliked the "age" of the DSP card concept.

This in turn means, that you can get rid of most if not all Waves variants of Universal Audio (LA2A, 1176), NEVE, AMPEX, Studer, SSL, etc... With everything Universal Audio (LAxA, 1176, 610 Tube Preamp, etc), you can go directly to the source. In the future even completely (considering the trend of their offering). And the UAD versions of both the Studer A800 and the Ampex ATR-102 (not native yet!) are still considered to be the best ports out there (that just ate too much DSP power). AMS/Neve also preferred to collaborate with Universal Audio (also not available in "native" yet).

Yes... it is good to have options in this case.



I might or might not comment on the other commentary in here.

Let's just say this. As much as people see Waves Audio to be a forerunner of dumping prices, they were also the literal poster child of how to overprice ones plugins, while recycling code, and get away with that with years on end (plugin uses a brand name, sell for 399USD individually!). Then sell at 1/10th of their price as "incentive" (some might say, their "actual worth"), then calculate mandatory paid yearly upgrades (because why bugfix, right?) based upon the MSRP not their constantly low sales prices.

Other companies adapted the same in terms of up-selling. However, compared to Waves Audio, they did not drop everything and go "subscription only" -- they offer it as additional option. Some even now offer "Rent-to-Own".



Also... I've written this on Twitter:

Waves Audio could have been save of most criticism if they just did one thing prior to the bait-and-switch (that they legit did not communicate on. Only Best Service did!).

Upgrade every license you own to the most recent version (aka V14), free of charge. Then change the "WUP" to 6 months absolute max (which is now obsolete).

Ain't that a novel concept, eh? Then this would calm the minds of people that can't upgrade anything anymore, and actually stretch out a hand towards their new subscription model. As in "sorry we've been vague with this, welcome to the family, enjoy your tools, jump on our new offering at your own leisure".

But maybe I'm just too naive in my thinking.



Anyway... go support the indie devs!
And/or those that do not go "subscription only", but are still a bit "higher price range".

[Hewitt Huntwork]

that's why its interesting companies like GForce have decided to ignore the market manipulation and refuse to devalue their IP...it will be interesting to see how that works out
[/quote]

I think of all the companies that have devalued their IP, GForce is perhaps the saddest. They could have chosen to improve their flagship product, but instead they gave a huge middle finger to their existing customer base and released a largely overlapping product with no consideration for the users who put them on the map. Meanwhile, the flagship product languishes with a GUI that looks like a 1990s website.

Now, Spectrasonics on the other hand, has continued to maintain the value of their software by exceeding customer and industry expectations virtually every time.

[Compyfox]

Except for releasing StylusRMX v2, with native REX/WAV loading without converting to the SAGE format, and maybe 4x4 Drum pad.

...too soon?

I mean... it's only been 10 years. But yes, at least we got free maintenance updates up to this day.

[ATS]

I'm not surprised at all, since they were using sort of subscription model even before, it just wasn't called that.

Not really. People had complaints about WUP, but you only needed to pay it as needed to update to new versions. You still kept what you got even when your WUP was expired.

Now, you lose everything when your subscription runs out. You don’t get to keep your investment. If you have V14 now and you get the sub when V15 comes out, you go back to V14 when your subscription runs out.

This is considerably worse than WUP. You also no longer get the second license that WUP gave you.

exactly

[ATS]

Waves screwed over their long time customers royally.