Waves...smh

[do_androids_dream]

Waves did not steer the market. They merely responded to the commoditization of plugins that was occurring naturally due to over-saturation of the market.

Now Waves has reached full market saturation from constant sales and needs to generate new revenue from the same pool of existing customers.

Yes, this is likely the truth.

The world is being frog marched to a 'no ownership (therefore no rights..)/rental only/digital ID/currency' societal model, so many more companies will be transitioning to this digital slavery over the coming months/years. Waves are likely only really doing what they need to, to survive.

[do_androids_dream]

doublepost

[jens]

I hope it goes badly for them so others do not consider this route.

Personally I can't see them surviving.

They're not in a similar position (within their respective market) as Adobe by any stretch of the imagination.

And yet: whoever decided this step is apparently deluded enough to believe they were.

As has been mentioned it's certainly mostly hobbyists generating their income. If that wasn't the case, they'd not have had these constant sales going.

Someone earlier mentioned the possibility that this was a deliberate decision on their part in order to diminish the independent competitors. This is certainly nonsense for any number of reasons.

I think it's safe to say that they did it out of neccessity in order to generate enough cash-flow to keep going, and apparently this did not work for them anymore. And I am not suprised. The market is oversaturated and it gets harder and harder to come up with bestsellers, which is what they depend upon.

So I am pretty sure that this is a final act of desperation, not a cold-blodeed, well-calculated business-decision. If you looked well-enough you could signs of them struggling for a while now.

[sacer]

Waves doesn't offer the quality, if you compare them to softube, UAD and Fab Filter. They have done the same code in 200 Plugins which are marketed to big producer names and studios. There is no need to pay in their subscription again, you can compensate any Waves Plugin with better alternatives. Last Version of SSL EVO2 is soundwise on the same level than softube SSL 4000, but softube only uses 10 percent of Waves CPU Usage. The older Channelstrips, Comps and EQ don't stand up soundwise to UAD and Softube. So better invest in high quality plugins and you don't have to buy 50 comps and 100 eqs.

[jens]

I completely disagree. Personally I think it is absolutely absurd to claim that they'd just be rehashing old code without a) possessing the required coding-skills and b) having looked and their actual code. How would you know?

There is of course this Paul Third dude making such claims, but if you think his videos have merrit, you are - like himself - completely incompetent to begin with.

Waves plugins are well optimized. If they use a lot of CPU there's a reason for it. And in most other regards they are high quality too.

[jamcat]

I think there is something to what sacer said, though. Not that Waves is just recycling old code in new plugins, but something related.

What has always been Waves’ greatest strength, is also their greatest weakness, and it’s caught up with them. Waves is the oldest plugin company there is. And from the very beginning, nearly 30 years ago, you could always open your Waves plugins and they would work the same and sound the same. Waves has always offered the ultimate stability to audio professionals. They pride themselves on it.

But with a catalog of plugins as old as 30 years, most of their plugins are quite long in the tooth. That has become baked into their reputation. These are your grandpa’s plugins. So how do they compete with all of these newer, more nimble developers with nothing but cutting edge plugins?

Even if Waves’ latest plugins are just as modern, they’re still weighed down by hundreds of legacy plugins that they can’t abandon or change. They are being crushed under the weight of their own legacy.

That really should be a wake-up call to other large developers who haven't made a habit of refreshing their existing plugin lines with the latest DSP.

[jens]

I don't get it - as a customer you can just ignore the old stuff (that's what I (mostly) do) - what do you mean with "crushed under the weight" of it?
None of us have any real idea regarding the amount of ressources they have to spend on keeping which part of their catalogue up to date.
If I would guess I'd say the old stuff usually adds mimimally to it, since what they update is basically mostly the shell, not the plugin itself. (I.e. I would assume that most changes to the shell affect all plugins at once. (Some graphics stuff and what not may of course not be universal).

[DrGonzo]

I don't get it - as a customer you can just ignore the old stuff (that's what I (mostly) do) - what do you mean with "crushed under the weight" of it?

I think he meant the amount of maintenance work they have to do. Like UI upscaling, making sure the old framework works with the new OSes, stuff like that. If you got five old plugins that's not a big problem, but if you got 50-100 that maintenance for even the smallest thing will suck up resources.

[Compyfox]

I will not go (super) in-depth on this post, as I wholeheartedly disagree with a lot of what has been written.

In the case of the Lindell Audio 80 Series, it means that while a single instance is sonically indistinguishable from the UAD 1073, multiple instances together have more separation due to the cumulative affect of TMT. It also means that you get more value for a lot less money because...

Price/Value is an apple/oranges comparison in this case.

Again, UAD is officially endorsed/does official ports. And while Brainworx (subsidiary of Plugin Alliance) did port stuff for UAD, you can't compare that either. Lindell is a completely different branch under the "Alliance" umbrella as well. Also remember, UAD is new to the native game (and thank the fat lard in the sky, they understood that "subscription only for native plugins" is not the route to go!), while Plugin Alliance has been doing this for over a decade. Only now can people easily do their infamous "nulling conformation" as argument to end all arguments.

That’s always been a hedge popularized by developers because their models were inaccurate and inadequate. It may hold some truth on antique museum pieces like a Fairchild, but something like a Neve 1073 is going to have a standard sound that a developer either nails or doesn’t. Differences from channel to channel are not so great as to render comparisons moot.

Completely disagreeing here. Not even an argument for me.

See my posts over the time-span of 10-15 years on this topic already. Pure analog equipment (as in -- no digital chips involved, and/or output circuits with less than 5% tolerance) is never comparable to each other. There will always be tolerances and offsets of 15% up to 25%. The nulling argument is kind of/sort of definitely invalid.

I'm tired of this endless fruitless debate. No matter the audio community.

The UAD and Lindell Audio 1073s sound extremely similar to each other. One of the main qualities that sets them apart from others is they both sound very clear, wide, and open. Like the real thing. Other 1073 models don’t capture that at all, and sound more congested, more distorted, and less detailed.

Can't confirm with Tokyo Dawn Labs, neither IK Multimedia.

Slate's 1073 variant FG-N (actually 1073 modded) is a special case -- it boosts/saturates too much on the high end -- and he said himself (Slate, back in the days) that his tools are in general "more Rock and Roll" (as in: more "character" than it should have). On purpose!

The actual sonic differences seem pretty minimal, actually. They have the same character. Both the A80 and A800 have the Studer sound. While using the hardware may be different experiences due to tangible physical differences, I don’t think the results on tape are so great that you could tell them apart with any certainty. That’s certainly the case for the plugins.

Nevermind - no use commenting here. You can not(!) compare these two machines. Neither in hardware, nor software. And the other machines mentioned.

We're apparently talking completely different things. And not only does this lead to nowhere, it also derails the thread. I'm stepping away from this.

I shouldn't have brought that up in the first place, apologies to all readers.





On the topic of a "Change.org" petition -- these usually lead to nowhere


On the topic of "Waves closing/hiding thread/posts" -- this is legit a thing happening. Especially on Twitter. I've read nearly all comments that have been posted so far last night. There were endless posts "hidden by original Tweet writer" that weren't even remotely insults... just stating a severe disappointment. This is a great promo for them.


On the topic of "unsubscribing from the newsletter" -- while this does send a message of "I don't want to deal with you anymore". Now assuming that they do turn around and fix their nonsense... who will spread the message? They could just hide it in an off-comment, with a timer yet again. And that's it. Not an unheard-of tactic.


And on the topic of the "user curated alternative list" -- Waves Audio is now aware of it. People have been waving (pun intended) that into their face on Social Media. I do hope you have a backup @plexus, in case they plan to nuke it from orbit.

On the other hand, I also saw other devs chime in on Social Media, and while not pinging the company in question, they've been outright mocking the decision to go "Subscription only". Clearly stating "we don't do that, and our upgrades are free of charge". Looks like the message came across one way or the other.

[jens]

On the topic of "unsubscribing from the newsletter" -- while this does send a message of "I don't want to deal with you anymore". Now assuming that they do turn around and fix their nonsense... who will spread the message? They could just hide it in an off-comment, with a timer yet again. And that's it. Not an unheard-of tactic.

Well, that would be their problem then, right?

Not that this would make the slightest sense for them though. If they decided to backpaddle at least some distance, they of course would absolutely have the utmost interest in people becoming aware of it.

[Teksonik]

Well now that it's official concerning Waves money grab subscription only model all I can say is....

Thank god Waves will now go bankrupt and the industry will finally be rid of one of the most despicable developers ever.

This truly is a time to celebrate...........

I do feel sorry for Waves employees but maybe they'll start their own company that's not run by greedy idiots.

I also feel sorry for people who have invested in Waves plugins but they have had one of the most repulsive systems in the history of plugins so you really shouldn't be surprised at this latest move.

The bottom line is if you don't want to end up paying hundreds of dollars a month to rent your software from every developer then simply don't fall for the subscription scam and it will die.

No one subscribes = no subscription scams. Pretty simple.

[0degree]

Well now that it's official concerning Waves money grab subscription only model all I can say is....

Thank god Waves will now go bankrupt and the industry will finally be rid of one of the most despicable developers ever.

This truly is a time to celebrate...........

I think you're overly optimistic here - pretty sure they will survive because of some ESG or other financial voodoo-fuckery where their value now will be perceived higher due to increaed revenue forecast in the future.

No one subscribes = no subscription scams. Pretty simple.

^^This. If we agree to those scams we'll be renting everything in audio industry and then in every other one

[jamcat]

Price/Value is an apple/oranges comparison in this case.

No it isn’t. Both UAD and Lindell Audio are selling models of the Neve 1073. They sound strikingly similar. But one gives you a whole lot more for a whole lot less.

Again, UAD is officially endorsed/does official ports. And while Brainworx (subsidiary of Plugin Alliance) did port stuff for UAD, you can't compare that either.

First of all, these are not “ports.” They are mathematical models made from turning schematics into algorithms, and measurements into equations.

You most certainly can compare all of that.

You seem to be falling for marketing, though. A licensing deal has nothing to do with the scientific side of it. It only has to do with the business side of it. And not everybody has wanted to play ball with UAD. Like Roland for example. Even though they had a licensing deal with Arturia for a while.

But a licensing deal only means that the associated brand is getting a cut of the sales. You should never assume it means anything more.

Lots of developers have official licensing agreements. Brainworx has licensing deals too. SSL, AMEK, Focusrite, Ampeg, Suhr, A/DA, and ENGL, to name a few.

[Teksonik]

I think you're overly optimistic here - pretty sure they will survive because of some ESG or other financial voodoo-fuckery where their value now will be perceived higher due to increaed revenue forecast in the future.

Hey don't rain on my parade. There is so little to celebrate these days.......

[0degree]

I think you're overly optimistic here - pretty sure they will survive because of some ESG or other financial voodoo-fuckery where their value now will be perceived higher due to increaed revenue forecast in the future.

Hey don't rain on my parade. There is so little to celebrate these days.......

Sorry!