Any advice on "layering"
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 126 posts since 10 Jan, 2021
Hi all,
I was given some feedback recently on a hip-hop song I produced, the feedback was to add/incorporate more layering, to make the production sound more "modern".
Any good training resources or tips on how to achieve this? I'm not super familiar with this term/technique, thanks!
I was given some feedback recently on a hip-hop song I produced, the feedback was to add/incorporate more layering, to make the production sound more "modern".
Any good training resources or tips on how to achieve this? I'm not super familiar with this term/technique, thanks!
- KVRAF
- 10395 posts since 20 Nov, 2003 from Lost and Spaced
EQ each layer (if you can). I mean take the dominant layer, or the one you want to stand out and put a frequency analyzer on it. Find it's main frequency, then cut a little notch in that frequency of the others. You can do this for each layer. It's tedious but can really round out the sound you're trying for.
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- KVRian
- 562 posts since 10 Feb, 2017
Sounds like they want you to have more instruments on top of each other for a melody, and they think your sound is too thin, perhaps?JMTee_ wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 2:05 pm Hi all,
I was given some feedback recently on a hip-hop song I produced, the feedback was to add/incorporate more layering, to make the production sound more "modern".
Any good training resources or tips on how to achieve this? I'm not super familiar with this term/technique, thanks!
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- KVRAF
- 7827 posts since 24 May, 2002 from Tutukaka, New Zealand
Yeah, more likely to mean more layers of instruments than actually layering similar sounds on top of each other. There's loads of crap on internet and forums about stacking 5 kicks on each other and playing a lead line with 3 synths or pads with several chord instruments...mostly which is completely unnecessary and done because people don't know what they're doing and saw it from some numpty YouTube channel. If you need 5 kicks, you're doing something horribly wrong to start with. It's a myth that's hopefully dying.
What instrumentation do you have? If it's just a beat, bassline and vocal...that's pretty sparse, for example.
What instrumentation do you have? If it's just a beat, bassline and vocal...that's pretty sparse, for example.
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Hewitt Huntwork Hewitt Huntwork https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=7460
- KVRAF
- 1531 posts since 2 Jun, 2003
In a hip hop context, layering could also refer to the use of foley and sound effects, especially in the percussion/drums to make the drums more interesting and unique.
If every KVR member wrote one review a year we'd have 1340 reviews each day!
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- KVRist
- 341 posts since 30 Nov, 2008
vocal doubling aka ad lip
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- KVRAF
- 6409 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden
Look at spreading in different octaves then, to increase frequency content.
And carefully choose which instruments to layer with, so not stacking the same frequencies on top of each other.
If layering a bass with xylophone with same melody you are fine.
And check with guides like in Ozone which frequencies are missing
http://cloudmanfilms.ownit.nu/Ozone-Guides.jpg
Just about all professional recordings I looked at follow these guidelines as fully mastered.
- vinyl the lower path
- modern cd and digital the upper line
And carefully choose which instruments to layer with, so not stacking the same frequencies on top of each other.
If layering a bass with xylophone with same melody you are fine.
And check with guides like in Ozone which frequencies are missing
http://cloudmanfilms.ownit.nu/Ozone-Guides.jpg
Just about all professional recordings I looked at follow these guidelines as fully mastered.
- vinyl the lower path
- modern cd and digital the upper line
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- KVRer
- 7 posts since 8 Dec, 2022
Also look at layering whatever synth part you have. In pigments, for example, you can double the layers of your patch. Or you can send midi to two tracks on your DAW. Maybe one synth part focuses on adding in some high end of has some modulation not present on the other layer
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 126 posts since 10 Jan, 2021
Thanks very much for all the input, I think the feedback was related to making the song sound more "modern", and probably implying the sound was too thin
- KVRAF
- 9738 posts since 18 Aug, 2007 from NYC
This advice is usually given for hip hop and making kicks and bass sound either thicker or more impactful.
There’s more than one way to do this and layering can mess things up quickly… But if you are going to layer, go back to Osiris’ post (first response) and get ready to do that. Usually you won’t do more than 3 layers for kicks.
Same can go for bass
What you’re after is again something that can be done without layering but good mixing, that’s giving the sound a heavy bottom end, and making it so you can hear it on shitty speakers.
What you’re trying to avoid is phasing issues. Double the phase will double the output, causing your master to peak. Or if the sound is too similar and out of phase, it will make the sounds thin.
EQ is your friend.
Learning about saturation will be an equally good friend.
- KVRAF
- 10395 posts since 20 Nov, 2003 from Lost and Spaced
I don't think you need to layer 3 kicks. (Unless you're going for 3 different kick sounds in your tune) Parallel Comp, EQ, make sure it's mono. Bass is always good with a Sub layer - make sure basses don't fight each other in frequencies. Leads can be good if you're trying to get a certain sound & you find something close, but not quite. You can make it what you want with layers of other leads, again making frequencies mesh. Pads also, not so much for some types of music. You can also double track vocals. You have to watch out for phase, but if you hit the right spot, you'll hear it. This doesn't always work, but when it does.
- KVRAF
- 9738 posts since 18 Aug, 2007 from NYC
I should add that I don't it's necessary either, but I know that is the advice given for "layering" and it is exactly as you suggest... 3 different sounds (sub/main/top), but there many ways to get there without ever adding layers.osiris wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:34 pm I don't think you need to layer 3 kicks. (Unless you're going for 3 different kick sounds in your tune) Parallel Comp, EQ, make sure it's mono. Bass is always good with a Sub layer - make sure basses don't fight each other in frequencies. Leads can be good if you're trying to get a certain sound & you find something close, but not quite. You can make it what you want with layers of other leads, again making frequencies mesh. Pads also, not so much for some types of music. You can also double track vocals. You have to watch out for phase, but if you hit the right spot, you'll hear it. This doesn't always work, but when it does.
- KVRAF
- 2517 posts since 20 Apr, 2005
Layering kicks can be ok, you just need to watch out for bass part aligning well and not cancelling out. Especially, this is where tuning any sub to kinda match the kicks bass can help.
Can also split and do quick fades between start and end of different kicks.
It can be worthwhile, but it's perhaps simpler to find some goog kicks you like and want to use, and then using pitch, (maybe) compression, saturation, distortion, eq to taste.
Can also split and do quick fades between start and end of different kicks.
It can be worthwhile, but it's perhaps simpler to find some goog kicks you like and want to use, and then using pitch, (maybe) compression, saturation, distortion, eq to taste.
- KVRAF
- 10395 posts since 20 Nov, 2003 from Lost and Spaced
Also want to add: if you're doing a hip-hop song, you may want the kick to be the dominant, in which case you probably should add a sub to that. Easy peasy, simple low sine wave, HP below 25 or 30 to remove rumble (your call).
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- KVRian
- 783 posts since 18 Apr, 2011
yes.. And one of the key things to understand is that layering things actually makes them sound less up front. Just think of the sound of a string section vs a single violin. If you want a lead line to really cut through a dense mix, having a single oscillator sound with no unison is going to do it a lot better than 2 big fat unison synths playing at the same time.kritikon wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:40 pm Yeah, more likely to mean more layers of instruments than actually layering similar sounds on top of each other. There's loads of crap on internet and forums about stacking 5 kicks on each other and playing a lead line with 3 synths or pads with several chord instruments...mostly which is completely unnecessary and done because people don't know what they're doing and saw it from some numpty YouTube channel. If you need 5 kicks, you're doing something horribly wrong to start with. It's a myth that's hopefully dying.
What instrumentation do you have? If it's just a beat, bassline and vocal...that's pretty sparse, for example.