Waves...smh

[kidslow]

Not a huge thing if you're on Windows but for some reason on Mac the OS changes annually it seems and that hoses these plugins from functioning there.

It's funny to see how often this myth gets perpetuated. Never by Mac users either.

The only major recent hosing on a Mac by Waves took place when Apple changed hardware for their processors, so not just an "annual OS change" but a complete hardware architecture change.

The idea that this is a myth is a myth. I updated my 2015 MBP just over a year ago when I was updating from one OS to another to make Cubase 12 work. That broke all my Waves plugs, so I updated Gold to Platinum in a deal for about 60 bucks. No complaints whatsoever. Now I’ll need to update again if I buy silicon.

So you’re factually incorrect. Mac users have had to update on OS updates, not just for the silicon transition.

The myth is that Mac users of Waves have their plugins broken with every OS release. That is basically what gets perpetuated.

A straw man argument does nothing to disprove that or me. Sometimes Waves breaks on OS updates on Mac is not the same as saying every OS update breaks Waves on Mac. C'mon man.


I have no doubt that you experienced exactly what you say, but you leave out all sorts of details that would establish why it happened and would probably bore everyone to death, even you (otherwise you would have included them). For all I know your broken plugins could have been fixed without WUP using an offline installer.

[noiseboyuk]

The myth is that Mac users of Waves have their plugins broken with every OS release. That is basically what gets perpetuated.

A straw man argument does nothing to disprove that or me. Sometimes Waves breaks on OS updates on Mac is not the same as saying every OS update breaks Waves on Mac. C'mon man.


I have no doubt that you experienced exactly what you say, but you leave out all sorts of details that would establish why it happened and would probably bore everyone to death, even you (otherwise you would have included them). For all I know your broken plugins could have been fixed without WUP using an offline installer.

It's pretty simple - Waves supports 3 versions of MacOS, and 2 of Windows. MacOS is fundamentally new each year, while Windows releases stay the same for many, many years. So while it is hyperbole to say every MacOS update "breaks Waves", it is accurate to say that you need to WUP far more often if you are a Mac user.

So here's the current v14 compatibility:

Mac users: Waves V14 is officially supported on macOS Catalina 10.15.7 - Ventura 13.0. (3 years)

PC users: Waves V14 is officially supported on Windows 10 64 bit and Windows 11. (8 years and counting).

[Scotty]

People lose credibility when they speak in absolutes. Mac OS uodates do generate more caution here than windows uodates. I’m running both platforms and have for years. I went through the 68k to Power PC changeover, POWER PC migration to Intel and now the Intel to Apple Silicon transition is almost complete. Those deep architectural changes present challenges to developers. In addition to this, It isn’t altogether rare for an Mac OS update to break a plugin or even a DAW. Sometimes hardware is impacted. Logic and Live I’m looking at you, It isn’t every update but it happens with enough frequency to put a caution flag on the field. Waves benefits from this by charging for updates after the WUP has expired. I haven’t had to pay for WUP on my PC even once ( running version 8 through 14) My Mac though has required WUP on two occasions now and soon a third with my new MacBook Pro. At a few hundred bucks each time that stings.

[kidslow]

Scotty there you go making sensible nuanced contributions. Curious what previous OS updates required you to WUP. Between MacOS 10.13 and today I have had to WUP my Waves once, for M1 Silicon native support.

[noiseboyuk]

It came to light last week that Waves already had a subscription system going for two years, and almost everyone - including me - forgot that it even existed. Maybe the first version of subscription was secretly a great financial success for them, but I somehow doubt it. Given that, it will forever remain a mystery how they figured this would be okay to make things subs-only overnight.

As it is, last week we had Waves permanent or subscription. This week - or whenever their highly stressed IT department get everything working again - we have Waves permanent or subscription. Nothing, essentially, will have changed except their subs offering got revamped with a new pricing structure. (assuming there's no further changes to their perpetual system).

But no-one will see it quite that way. On Sunday the Waves world was briefly united - everyone thought the rapidly abandoned plan was a terrible idea. But now the public response has been fractured again. Either Waves have proved they can never be trusted again, or they've proven that they can never pull such a stunt again.

Just interesting to observe the human reaction. Pet theory - ideologues are the ones who won't trust them again (the sin was too grievous to ever forgive), pragmatists are the ones who will (they tried something dumb and corrected their mistake). Guess I'm a pragmatist.

Good be a good time for a new poll if anyone can be bothered to start one.

[Teksonik]

Thank god Waves will now go bankrupt and the industry will finally be rid of one of the most despicable developers ever.
This truly is a time to celebrate...........

Except you're probably wrong.

Unfortunately now I am after Waves sobered up and changed their minds on the subscription only scam.

So Waves, screw you.

Still feel the same way now ?

[_leras]

The myth is that Mac users of Waves have their plugins broken with every OS release. That is basically what gets perpetuated.

Really a myth?

It seems to me that every Mac OS update comes with tons of issues for anyone that uses third party software. Waves or otherwise...

[kidslow]

It seems to me that every Mac OS update comes with tons of issues for anyone that uses third party software. Waves or otherwise...

Have you personally experienced this or is it just the whinging on message boards that gives you this impression?

[beely]

It seems to me that every Mac OS update comes with tons of issues for anyone that uses third party software. Waves or otherwise...

I generally have very few problems between macOS versions. Occasionally you'll get a new macOS that has done something substantial (like revising the security model, or deprecating some old graphics standards etc) and some plugins (or sometimes just their installers) need some additional work to comply, but equally, there are a lot of really well programmed Mac plugins that rarely give problems and just continue to work through multiple OS revisions.

Currently, for example, PA plugins are very crashy on Ventura (PA are just finalising their update to fix this), but very few other plugins have had problems on Ventura, most have continued to work. The sensible people hold off immediately jumping to a new OS, just in case any issues are discovered (and if you're extra cautious, wait for an "everything is OK for our plugins on the new systems" mail from your important plugin developers).

So yes, you do get issues, more so than on Windows as MS aren't changing/improving/adding the fundamentals nearly as much, or doing architecture transitions etc, depending on what Apple have changed in OS updates, but usually this is fairly minor, and tends to only affect a subset of plugin developers, some of which are faster than others at addressing them. But it's not like 80% of Mac users' plugins break every year when a new OS comes out.

So it's a factor, but ime it's not nearly as much of a factor as people often make out. The technology transitions are usually the biggest factor, and Mac people have gone through a fair bunch of these (Windows pretty much only had the 32 -> 64 bit transition to deal with, Mac users have had a lot more over the last decade or two) and they do cause some challenges for developers - on the flipside, they generally have improved the Mac platform substantially in the process, so...

Other than the ARM transition (which was actually pretty smooth, all things considered, especially as the Apple stuff has layers to handle this, eg to run non-ARM plugins inside Logic running natively etc - pretty much all of my Intel plugins continued to work on ARM as normal), I've actually had very few plugin compatibility headaches on the Mac going back a decade or so, certainly none that spring to mind, or plugins I bought that all of a sudden I had to abandon because of compatibility issues.

So for all the non-Mac people who think running a DAW on macOS must be some kind of nightmare to manage, it really isn't - or at least, hasn't been in my experience.

[Compyfox]

It came to light last week that Waves already had a subscription system going for two years, and almost everyone - including me - forgot that it even existed. Maybe the first version of subscription was secretly a great financial success for them, but I somehow doubt it. Given that, it will forever remain a mystery how they figured this would be okay to make things subs-only overnight.

They've been offering subscriptions longer than that. I remember them doing that since at least V11. They just didn't advertise it as aggressively.

Maybe some users in here had the right idea... "subscription only is the best way to generate steady income... people are over-saturated with tools, our 95% discount sales don't do much anymore, even our 9-10month yearly paid upgrades don't add anything to WUP".

This is modern marketing 101 as well... make something desirable, but price it high initially. Certain people will jump on the MSRP and not bat an eye. Others have to wait and sit it out. Then do a "sale", don't even mention a deadline... just say "available for a limited time"... BOOM! Massive influx of sales.

And then, in case of Waves' recent history... let's get the people with WUP... based upon the MSRP... not the actual "value" (aka: constant sale price). But cat the WUP at 250USD max, plus VAT.

Only now, they realized "wait a minute... if people pay as much anyway for WUP, and not go through our store directly but through third party stores and their sales constantly... why not go subscription only then -- bind them to us for forever".

Doesn't sound that far off anymore.


There is just one problem with that... considering that you have to have a subscription for literally everything these days... not counting apartment and usage bills, there is phone/internet, TV/Radio (some countries force you on that, even if you don't use it), then a lot of companies going "sub only" (Adobe, AVID, etc). Yeah, people are getting tired with this.

They, as in Waves Audio, "tried" something... and realized really quickly, that this was a bad idea. Now they're paddling back. Like everyone did that went "subscription only" (Sony Oxford tried that as well).


More and more companies realize "people want the option to subscribe, or even rent-to-down... ". Rightfully so! Those that tried, learned really quick "just one way over the over... ain't going to work".




Which brings me to the fears of "Soundwide might go subscription only" from earlier in this thread, and the plain downright sh#tting on these companies as well. I don't think this "prediction" will happen. Although... never tell me the odds! But looking at the backlash regarding Waves Audio... companies will be very, very careful now!


I mean... let's look at the subsidiaries.

iZotope recently pulled a lot of crap with them "dropping" (overnight, no warning either, and communication being crap for days after that move!) most of Exponential Audio and half of their tool sets (Iris2, Trash2, their loop manglers, even "Stutter Edit 2" was in jeopardy). The backlash was just as huge! They're in a bit of a weird spot since that move now as well, constantly spamming emails with "did you know, did you know, DID YOU KNOW?!". Yes, I do know, my trust is also broken towards you, iZotope. And no "loyalty upgrade deal" will change that in the imminent future. My current version of RX is doing me fine -- you'll drop "Advanced" features down to "Standard" every 2 versions anyway, I'm not a fan of your "forced yearly paid upgrades". I don't f#cking care about Nectar and Ozone... and I'm still more than salty about Excalibur and Trash2!

Anyway... to get back from the rant, they (iZotope) do offer subscriptions, but as an additional service - thankfully.


Plugin Alliance has been pushing "subscription models", for years now. But with the added bonus of a "Loyalty Plan" -- "The money you invest per year, is also a voucher that you can use for picking up anything you want, and keep it for life!". A Day-1 voucher, by the way (renewing every year). During sales, you can pick up a lot(!) of stuff. So once your subscription plan ends, or you decide to cancel it, you still get to keep what you really want.

They actually also offer "Rent-to-Own" now as well, for certain bundles (like the 2022 one). And Dirk Ulrich made clear before stepping "up" as board member for Soundwide, that this will stay that way.

Also... Plugin Alliance plugins are actually updated for free... until a v2 for a certain tool (rare these days), or an "enhanced version" rolls around (reiteration with more features). Even then, fair crossgrade prices, activate on any USB sick. Heck, Mr Ulrich even kept his word on the topic of "global license activation schemes". I still remember the mid 2000s debates on "plain USB stick vs iLok/Elicenser/Codemeter/UAD". He stood his ground and his companies offered this right from the get go, and activation on USB keys have never been any simpler.


And then we got Native Instruments. My biggest issue with them is still that I, as "Kontakt only" user, am literally bled more financially than a Komplete user. I don't want Komplete, I don't need it. It's a waste of Space/Money if I would only use two tools from that tool-set (Kontakt and Reaktor). But it is ultimately the cheaper upgrade. Thankfully, I can still upgrade/crossgrade how I seem fit, and with a Summer Deal even at a decent price (considering that NI doesn't care if you use a really old version of tool ABC). Up until late last year, subscription also wasn't a thing with Native Instruments. It is with "Komplete NOW".

HOWEVER... Komplete NOW is not necessarily directed at hardcore users. It is supposed to be an "entry level deal", to get you interested in KOMPLETE (Full). Basically, Native Instruments is trying what Sony Oxford/SONNOX tried with their subscription plan back in the day: focus on students/hobbyists - offering you to try stuff without accessing er... shady means. "Book something" for a couple of months, finish your work, move on. Like the stuff, get the full deal.



And that(!) is what companies should do!

Give us the option. Even if you make it super hard to find it on your homepage, and/or price it in such a way that it's a borderline insult.



Now going back to the topic of Waves Audio.

With all the backlash towards them... pretty sure, they'll change their page in the future to focus on subscription still, while hiding a bit that perpetuals are a thing still/again. On top of continuing their WUP BS.

Plenty of companies do this lately.

[Compyfox]

This one is fresh from the newsletter

Dear Waves community,

We would like to update you that effective immediately, you can once again renew your Waves Update Plan in order to update perpetual plugin and bundle licenses. This option will remain in place going forward.

In addition, we are working to bring back the option to purchase new perpetual licenses for plugins and bundles. We will make this option available to you as soon as possible, and will let you know when it is ready.

We are committed to making your preferred options available to you. For ongoing updates, please consult this news page.

All the best,
The Waves Team

I just checked my account and the WUP.

No good-will, no auto-upgrades, no discounts. Just back to "the old habits" of bull-sh#ttery regarding calculating WUP.


I am not supporting this.
And neither should you.

Too little, too late.

[NikkiA]

So here's the current v14 compatibility:

Mac users: Waves V14 is officially supported on macOS Catalina 10.15.7 - Ventura 13.0. (3 years)

PC users: Waves V14 is officially supported on Windows 10 64 bit and Windows 11. (8 years and counting).

You're looking at it backwards, and that's why you don't see the issue.

V13 does not work on Ventura, V13 users had to WUP to V14 to be able to use Ventura, and since Apple *forces* new OSs on new hardware, if you bought a new mac, you needed to WUP

When MacOS 14, or 13.1 comes out, there is a very slim chance V14 plugins will work on it, more likely you'll need to WUP to V15

[billcarroll]

This one is fresh from the newsletter

Dear Waves community,

We would like to update you that effective immediately, you can once again renew your Waves Update Plan in order to update perpetual plugin and bundle licenses. This option will remain in place going forward.

In addition, we are working to bring back the option to purchase new perpetual licenses for plugins and bundles. We will make this option available to you as soon as possible, and will let you know when it is ready.

We are committed to making your preferred options available to you. For ongoing updates, please consult this news page.

All the best,
The Waves Team

I just checked my account and the WUP.

No good-will, no auto-upgrades, no discounts. Just back to "the old habits" of bull-sh#ttery regarding calculating WUP.


I am not supporting this.
And neither should you.

Too little, too late.

I would gladly pay the WUP if they were actually updating plugins in any meaningful way, adding features, etc.

I have so many Waves plugins that I will now never WUP. Better alternatives for almost all of them.

[Compyfox]

I would pay WUP, if it's capped to 29USD / year, no matter the plugin amount. Especially for only 1/10th the plugins of the "Standard" Subscription Model, which aren't even in the "Standard" plan.

Anything else is just continuous milking of us users, while Waves Audio sit in their chairs laughing, and riding into the sunset.


They legit reverted the WUP like it was before. Based upon MSRP and "age" of the version, which doesn't make any sense at all. Especially if certain plugins (like inPhase, or Abbey Road J37) really only saw maintenance updates, no additional features, new UI, resizing, etc. But the individual plugin price is massively inflated (especially Abbey Road).


So continue to "scream", people.
DO NOT let them get away with this.

If you cave now, and pay Waves Audio with a WUP, you're basically agreeing that what they just pulled is okay. And they will continue to abuse this position. Not only that, this will result as a blue print for every other company, realizing "if Waves Audio can get away with that, so can we".



This has to stop!

30 years of sitting around comfortably and getting away with that, has been enough! We have the unique chance to send a message.

Let us send a message for once!

[noiseboyuk]

So here's the current v14 compatibility:

Mac users: Waves V14 is officially supported on macOS Catalina 10.15.7 - Ventura 13.0. (3 years)

PC users: Waves V14 is officially supported on Windows 10 64 bit and Windows 11. (8 years and counting).

You're looking at it backwards, and that's why you don't see the issue.

V13 does not work on Ventura, V13 users had to WUP to V14 to be able to use Ventura, and since Apple *forces* new OSs on new hardware, if you bought a new mac, you needed to WUP

When MacOS 14, or 13.1 comes out, there is a very slim chance V14 plugins will work on it, more likely you'll need to WUP to V15

Well you’re right, I don’t see the issue... how is that not making my point? On macOS you need to update more frequently. Yes with hardware changes you might need it even more frequently.