KVR Audio

jens · Post by **jens** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:41 pm

yeah, I partly agree - but you know, Steven, this thread actually only exists because PG is not just a old fart but still doing innovative (electronic) music.

You should listen once to 'up' without prejudice.

oldevil · Post by **oldevil** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:27 pm

i was big PG and Roxy Music fan at one time, don't listen to either anymore, except to drag out the old vinyl of them. loved Genesis, have none on CD, just old vinyl.i'm an old fart too, but my tastes have changed in some ways. i always listened to electronic and 'outside' music-drove my friends crazy, still does. recent cd acquisitions have been Johnny A, Nurse with wound, Boards of Canada, and Black Keys. i guess that's what some would call 'eclectic' taste. but it truly is all subjective. i like out sorts of music-only exceptions being most Nashville-type 'new country' and most bling-bling rap crap, but that's just my tastes. and I do listen to some country and rap. but I don't find recent PG or Ferry very interesting at all- note i said 'interesting' not 'good', 'cos technically they're both very good, they just don't move me anymore. just my dumb opinion...

emdot_ambient · Post by **emdot_ambient** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:54 pm

Steven West wrote:What gets up my butt in this new millenium is the fact a 12 year old knows who Peter Gabriel is

Amen to that, brother West! This has been going on for ages now. In the early '90's I heard this 21 year old listening to an oldies station playing some damn '70s top 40 rock song. "What the HELL are you listening to that for?" I asked them. They said, "I don't know. It's on the radio. I like it."

I did a quick calculation in my head and realized that if at their age I was listening to music that out of date, it would have been Patty Duke or some crap like that. I wouldn't have been caught dead listening to Patty Duke when I was their age.

Steven West wrote:But now there's this acknowledged acceptance of all things past. All ages today can't say anything bad about Bob Dylan, Bob Marley, Pete Seeger, or Peter Gabriel... It's like they're forced by virtual attrition to be educated by them or something?

Unfortunately, Steven, I think the problem is that the artists you're talking about were all rebels in their own way and time. Rock has traditionally been about rebeling against the system, but now it IS the system. And every form of music that's hit it big since the hey days of Rock has been brought into the system. Rap and Hip Hop was, for a very brief time--a very, very brief time--anti-establishment. And I'm not talking about lyrical theme: Pink Floyd's work post-Dark Side was anti-establishment in theme but in no way anti-establishment from a business/artistic stand point. But the commercial value of Rap/HH was too quickly realized, thus it was corporatized, marketized and compromised. And even it is the establishment now.

Same's true in Jazz, where even the once considered wild and insane Bop repetoire has been turned into "standards."

So, maybe you have the correct idea. A return to the ideals of Futurism would do us good.

Bring on the Intonarumori!

Steven West · Post by **Steven West** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 10:48 pm

I do like Peter Gabriel, don't get me wrong Jens.

But I'm like OldEvil too, I'm always looking for 'something new' as well. Not saying that Peter Gabriel can't 'be new'. Look at how long Madonna's lasted, so Pete's still got a chance I think.

And glad I'm not alone Emdot Ambient.

My feelings EXACTLY! When I was in school, I would go to this ancient diner where a gang of us only played 3 songs on the old jukebox - The Clash (London Calling/Train In Vane), Aerosmith (Walk This Way), and a ancient Rolling Stones single (Manhatten Blues 12345 - or something like that?) Lot's of other records in the jukebox to choose from, but nobody would ever play them. I think I played Abba once, and was nearly disowned by everyone. And I think everyplace in North America was like that? Walk into a diner by a factory with a handful of hardhats inside - Bruce Springstein, Bob Seeger, John Cougar, and The Eagles. Techno dance club - Yaz, New Order, Depeche Mode, Visage... And on and on.

But I think you're right, something in the 90's changed many, including my friends. Overnight, my friend that loves The Cars and U2 suddenly became a devout Rolling Stones and The Doors fan. Kids coming into my watering hole were putting on Jesus Jones, Crosby Stills & Nash and Abba. Golden Oldie stations started playing more Peggy Lee and less Chuck Berry.
What the f**k happened?

But in a way, I kinda retraced my roots and realised I did indeed love The Cramps, The Flying Lizards, and 'M'. So I'm 'off the beaten path' still, but I know what I like and hold dear as my own 'geniuses' that I'm still enamored with.

And dare I say, I like this new Green Day - American Idiot. And I NEVER thought I'd live to see THAT DAY!

But I will say, Gabriel's got to loose that goatee. He looked TOO MUCH like Burl Ives there, and I expected to see Frosty The Snowman following behind him!

clueless · Post by **clueless** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:16 pm

emdot_ambient wrote:
Steven West wrote:What gets up my butt in this new millenium is the fact a 12 year old knows who Peter Gabriel is
Amen to that, brother West! This has been going on for ages now. In the early '90's I heard this 21 year old listening to an oldies station playing some damn '70s top 40 rock song. "What the HELL are you listening to that for?" I asked them. They said, "I don't know. It's on the radio. I like it."

I did a quick calculation in my head and realized that if at their age I was listening to music that out of date, it would have been Patty Duke or some crap like that. I wouldn't have been caught dead listening to Patty Duke when I was their age.

Steven West wrote:But now there's this acknowledged acceptance of all things past. All ages today can't say anything bad about Bob Dylan, Bob Marley, Pete Seeger, or Peter Gabriel... It's like they're forced by virtual attrition to be educated by them or something?
Unfortunately, Steven, I think the problem is that the artists you're talking about were all rebels in their own way and time. Rock has traditionally been about rebeling against the system, but now it IS the system. And every form of music that's hit it big since the hey days of Rock has been brought into the system. Rap and Hip Hop was, for a very brief time--a very, very brief time--anti-establishment. And I'm not talking about lyrical theme: Pink Floyd's work post-Dark Side was anti-establishment in theme but in no way anti-establishment from a business/artistic stand point. But the commercial value of Rap/HH was too quickly realized, thus it was corporatized, marketized and compromised. And even it is the establishment now.

Same's true in Jazz, where even the once considered wild and insane Bop repetoire has been turned into "standards."

So, maybe you have the correct idea. A return to the ideals of Futurism would do us good.

Bring on the Intonarumori!

...then again, there's the kids buying up the latest generation of insipid cover versions, knowing nothing about the originals. Same with films.

"What are your influences, 'sonny'?"

"Er, the last fing I heard on Radio 1"

Sucks.

emdot_ambient · Post by **emdot_ambient** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:30 pm

Steven West wrote:When I was in school, I would go to this ancient diner where a gang of us only played 3 songs on the old jukebox - The Clash (London Calling/Train In Vane), Aerosmith (Walk This Way)

Oh, yeah, I meant to mention Aerosmith. Kids nowadays still think they're cool. Walk This Way was my Senior class song . . . in 1976! And they're still cool?

M'kay, you kids need to find something a little different. M'kay? Your grand pappy might have thought Aerosmith were cool, m'kay? But that was 30 years ago and you'll just have to find something else. Mmmmm'kay?

Rock Ist Tot

jens · Post by **jens** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:20 am

Steven West wrote:I do like Peter Gabriel, don't get me wrong Jens.

But I'm like OldEvil too, I'm always looking for 'something new' as well. Not saying that Peter Gabriel can't 'be new'. Look at how long Madonna's lasted, so Pete's still got a chance I think.

yes, I understood you

But my point is that 'up' indeed is something new which is the reason why Paul doesn't like it and thus started this thread.

Peter Gabriel is still a hero after almost 40 years in the music-business.

Not one of his records sounds like the other and he is always ahead of time.

Below is a link to the song which starts 'up'.

Darkness

Is it a matter of taste wether you like it or not? - Yes.

Does it sound even slightly similar to what he did with Genesis? - No.

Does it show real genius? - Yes.

Klemperer · Post by **Klemperer** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:36 am

I seem to own many records of Mr.Gabriel, so I'm surely one-sided for people who hate him. But I just can (as rather often lately ) agree with Jens, I'm astonished how often PG-records contain new kinds of music.
To be honest, before the "UP"-tour I wasn't sure whether the concerts would be something I should watch. The show was planned like never before in PG's musical life, I think, every night the same songs, every night the same to do for loads of technicians, and so on. But not only me but my pretty much younger-than-me

girl-friend was overwhelmed with the show here at Hamburg. All those innovative musicians, a jazz-keyboarder (Rachel Z), the "Mann der tiefen Töne" as Gabriel said, Tony Levin on bass, and so on. I can't remember having heard such a variety of songs anywhere else in 2004.
I pretty well understand that others don't find any new ways in this music, after all, it's every time at least a bit personal taste and WHAT you mean with "new". After "up" there will be, as far as I'm informed, a CD with not so dark and brooding songs. I'm looking forward to it... the concert of 2004 was one of the best I've seen, outrageous. I stood beside a man who normally went to completely other musicians, and he couldn't believe HOW innovative Peter Gabriel is. I wouldn't say "still" as it's an old and wrong prejudice that you ALWAYS make your best music with 17-21

.

Glassback · Post by **Glassback** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:37 am

Why do establised geniuses like Gabriel and Ferry suck now?

Because they're old and their teeth are falling out?
So now they had to find a different use for that straw.

alpi · Post by **alpi** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:30 am

leaving aside the ferry/gabriel question...

I think we are in the same cycle which classical music went through, for a couple of centuries it slowly expanded and evolved, peaked and then went into fairly rapid decline

non-classical (as we know it today) has went thru the same cycle and is heading for the decline phase.

(of course , there will still be good new things being done, just as there are now with classical, but not on the same scale)

The big question is what is next ?

As the economies of China and India grow , their cultural influence will become greater. My bet is that the next phase will originate in those countries as Western domination of world culture fades away....

haydxn · Post by **haydxn** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:41 am

emdot_ambient wrote: Oh, yeah, I meant to mention Aerosmith. Kids nowadays still think they're cool. Walk This Way was my Senior class song . . . in 1976! And they're still cool?

M'kay, you kids need to find something a little different. M'kay? Your grand pappy might have thought Aerosmith were cool, m'kay? But that was 30 years ago and you'll just have to find something else. Mmmmm'kay?

Rock Ist Tot

this is probably the most stupid opinion i've ever seen!

what's wrong with liking something that is old? i find it hard to believe that you actually think this is a problem?? what about classical music? that was cool at the time but we don't need to listen to it now, or even acknowledge it existed - the future is the only music worth listenning to!

i'm all for new stuff but that's just plain 'bellishness'

suthnear · Post by **suthnear** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 12:10 pm

The making of 'Up'. And the beauty of this article is that it provides ample proof for both side's points

jens · Post by **jens** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 12:54 pm

Wow - great article - thanks for the link

In fact some of my favorite rhythm programming was on this track by Chris Hughes and a thing called Supercollider [a Mac freeware soft synth]. It breaks everything up into lots of little pieces and then reassembles them, still very granulated. It has this strange mysterious percussive quality to it.

I can't imagine many 'established' artists using things like Supercollider.

jens · Post by **jens** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:02 pm

A remix album, which will see people like Tricky and Trent Reznor having a go at various tracks from Up, is also expected in the shops towards the end of the year.

emdot_ambient · Post by **emdot_ambient** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:42 pm

haydxn wrote:
emdot_ambient wrote: Oh, yeah, I meant to mention Aerosmith. Kids nowadays still think they're cool. Walk This Way was my Senior class song . . . in 1976! And they're still cool?

M'kay, you kids need to find something a little different. M'kay? Your grand pappy might have thought Aerosmith were cool, m'kay? But that was 30 years ago and you'll just have to find something else. Mmmmm'kay?

Rock Ist Tot
this is probably the most stupid opinion i've ever seen!

what's wrong with liking something that is old?

You've missed my point. There's nothing wrong with liking old music. I love Swing music from the 30's. Nothing at all wrong with appreciating what's been done in the past. The point was that popular music has stagnated.

Look at the history of popular music over the past century. In the 20's Jazz hit the international scene as THE most popular music around. It was revolutionary and a huge departure from the sappy parlor room syrup that came before. But by the 30's Jazz had evolved into a much different beast and we issued in the Swing era. By the 40s Swing itself had changed and was dominated by the smaltzy big bands. The 50s brought in Rockabilly, that which replaced Jazz as the popular music of the day. Jazz evolved into the highly experimental and introverted Bop movement. By the 60's we had Pop and true Rock N Roll. The 70s birthed the first commercial electronic music and a whole host of various Rock genres. The 80s gave us synth pop, heavy metal and the birth of Rap/Hip Hop--but all these popular forms were still stuck in the Rock world and married heavily to corporate interests. Now here we are in nearly 2005 and we're STILL laboring under the illusion that Rock is radical, new and revolutionary. My comment was simply to try and point out that this is a false and boring paradigm.

If Aerosmith has remained "cool" for 30 years, don't you think that's indicative of a stagnant music industry? If the youth of today see no difference between listening to oldies music and listening to the latest CD release, don't you think that's an indication that Rock/Pop is no longer about change, challenging the status quo or rebelling against the cultural rules set by their parents/grandparents?

Where are the boundary pushers now? The cover of the first Residents album was actually the cover of Meet the Beatles with mustaches, fangs and horns drawn on the Fab 4's pictures. That was in 1974. There point wasn't simply that they hated the Beatles, but that Rock/Pop was a stagnant art form. If that was being realized in 1974, why haven't we seen some kind of movement toward a new popular music?

I think alpi's comment is probably correct. China's economic rise in this next century will probably warp popular music toward some Western/Asian variant and most of the people here will hate it because it has nothing to do with their culture.