I Have an Uncomfortable Admission to Make

[machinesworking]

Posts stating a synth is great to somebody don’t need arguing or debate. It’s a personal opinion, it’s a lot different than something like “This soft synth sounds just like the original SEM!”

So true. It’s super tedious when threads get filled with that kind of b.s, but the usual perps are easily put on ignore. I don’t care that people like or hate something, but when people start cutting down other people’s choices as “crap,” it’s just stupid posturing, and mostly people talking to themselves.

I don’t mind when super opinionated people tell me what synths they love, personally I had never paid much attention to the Uno Pro and now I’m going to.

The first Uno had a bunch of bad demos made for it by IK. I have no idea how they managed to get posted the way they did, but they legitimately sucked. I can’t quite remember, but there was some odd noise, like digital artifacts or something. Terrible. I’m good with the analog monos that I have, so I just sort of forgot about the Uno and didn’t even look at the Uno Pro, but since then, I’ve heard some great sounding demo tracks made with it.

The truth is, most stuff these days is good to great. In the past, low end stuff really meant low end quality, sonic and otherwise. I tend to lean towards higher end gear, but that’s more because I’m looking for specific features that are often missing from less expensive gear. That can go in the other direction too, as sometimes hardware can’t easily do what’s required. I just replaced my Dominion 1 in a track with Model 72 because I needed a degree of automation that is just way easier to do with a plugin. Makes me wish the Dominion 1 had a plugin editor. I’d probably use it a lot more if it did.

I'm constantly using my Memorymoog as a bass synth, total waste of polyphony to a degree except when I'm using stacked voices. Been looking around for a mono synth that I could use that way that isn't outrageously priced. The Uno Pro is on sale right now, then I've got Jam points. At what amounts to $200 It's tempting to just grab it and see if I like it. I would have been happy with the SEM re release they did a decade ago, missed that boat and no way am I paying what they go for used these days.

[zerocrossing]

Posts stating a synth is great to somebody don’t need arguing or debate. It’s a personal opinion, it’s a lot different than something like “This soft synth sounds just like the original SEM!”

So true. It’s super tedious when threads get filled with that kind of b.s, but the usual perps are easily put on ignore. I don’t care that people like or hate something, but when people start cutting down other people’s choices as “crap,” it’s just stupid posturing, and mostly people talking to themselves.

I don’t mind when super opinionated people tell me what synths they love, personally I had never paid much attention to the Uno Pro and now I’m going to.

The first Uno had a bunch of bad demos made for it by IK. I have no idea how they managed to get posted the way they did, but they legitimately sucked. I can’t quite remember, but there was some odd noise, like digital artifacts or something. Terrible. I’m good with the analog monos that I have, so I just sort of forgot about the Uno and didn’t even look at the Uno Pro, but since then, I’ve heard some great sounding demo tracks made with it.

The truth is, most stuff these days is good to great. In the past, low end stuff really meant low end quality, sonic and otherwise. I tend to lean towards higher end gear, but that’s more because I’m looking for specific features that are often missing from less expensive gear. That can go in the other direction too, as sometimes hardware can’t easily do what’s required. I just replaced my Dominion 1 in a track with Model 72 because I needed a degree of automation that is just way easier to do with a plugin. Makes me wish the Dominion 1 had a plugin editor. I’d probably use it a lot more if it did.

I'm constantly using my Memorymoog as a bass synth, total waste of polyphony to a degree except when I'm using stacked voices. Been looking around for a mono synth that I could use that way that isn't outrageously priced. The Uno Pro is on sale right now, then I've got Jam points. At what amounts to $200 It's tempting to just grab it and see if I like it. I would have been happy with the SEM re release they did a decade ago, missed that boat and no way am I paying what they go for used these days.

Seems like a great instrument for a great price. The other aspect is that if you end up not liking it for whatever reason, you can probably sell it for not too much of a loss.

[BONES]

If you actually thought about this, you would be advocating for ADSTR envelopes that include an additional "Fall/Rise" time after the Sustain segment. Such envelopes, as found on the Access Virus and a number of u-he soft synths, offer much more flexibility and sound design possibilities.

I've used all kinds of multi-point envelopes and 6 stage envelopes and what have you but ADSR seems to be the sweet spot, provided you can have bi-polar modulation, i.e. invertible ADSR, to get that fall/rise stuff going.

But regarding the 3 stage envelopes on the Minimoog, the most popular Nord Lead by far is the A1 which, you guessed it, features Minimoog style envelopes. For reasons I can't fathom, users seem to love them.

Users are idiots. But I think you'll find that the A1's popularity is driven by its price. People put up with shit like that so they can have something made by Nord. And, to be clear, it is way less than half the price of that other thing and offers 26 voices of polyphony and 4 part multi-timbrality.

Your jealously is there for all to see.

Ha! I've owned way more expensive synths that you, guaranteed. I paid $5,500 for a fully loaded Trinity in 1999 dollars, when I was earning $30k a year. That was one-quarter of a year's net pay in one hit. I spent that money because there was a real benefit in doing so but these days that's gone away. Today there is no possible justification for spending money like that so I don't. I'd much rather spend my money on a new car every few years, where the benefits are tangible and bring me a great deal of pleasure. (Finance is also a lot cheaper.) I used to have to choose between one and the other but now I can indulge both passions and my life is far richer for it.

I worked very hard for years to buy all the synths I own. That concept must be lost on you if you think I don''t own the synths I listed.

It most certainly is, in the face of the alternatives we have today. I can understand that you might like having them around - that's why I keep buying hardware - but if you think you are getting anything of substance from spending all that money, you're kidding yourself. $200 worth of software will run rings around your set-up.

[Big Mouth Strikes Again]

Regarding the 3 stage envelopes on the Minimoog, the most popular Nord Lead by far is the A1 which, you guessed it, features Minimoog style envelopes. For reasons I can't fathom, users seem to love them.

Users are idiots.

LOL. Sad but true.

Ha! I've owned way more expensive synths that you, guaranteed. I paid $5,500 for a fully loaded Trinity in 1999 dollars, when I was earning $30k a year. That was one-quarter of a year's net pay in one hit. I spent that money because there was a real benefit in doing so but these days that's gone away. Today there is no possible justification for spending money like that so I don't. I'd much rather spend my money on a new car every few years, where the benefits are tangible and bring me a great deal of pleasure. (Finance is also a lot cheaper.) I used to have to choose between one and the other but now I can indulge both passions and my life is far richer for it.

Yeah, about 7 years ago I sold over half of my hardware synths. My thinking at the time was that plugins were getting better and better and that soon my hardware synths would be worthless. But you know what? It never happened. With a few exceptions, plugins have plateaued in terms of sound quality even when developers devote three or four times as much processing power to them. I couldn't stand using synth plugins because they sounded so bad compared to my hardware synths. So I bought all of the hardware synths that I had sold. Unfortunately, the price of those synths had skyrocketed (even the digital synths like the Nord Rack 3). I spent 2 to 3 times as much as I had originally paid for them. I learned an important lesson, though. Never sell your hardware even if it can sometimes be a pain to use. Even if you want a new car. Because you'll regret it.

If you think you are getting anything of substance from spending all that money, you're kidding yourself. $200 worth of software will run rings around your set-up.

I can hear the difference between a shitty plugin record and one that uses hardware synths in an instant. Plugin records sound so small and grating. Just listen to any song in the Billboard "Hot 100" that uses synths. You'll notice that all of these songs sound the same. They're all written by the same teams of songwriters and they all use the same annoying synth plugins. No thanks.

[mholloway]

I can hear the difference between a shitty plugin record and one that uses hardware synths in an instant. Plugin records sound so small and grating.

Horseshit.

[Big Mouth Strikes Again]

Horseshit.

Charming.

[mholloway]

Horseshit.

Charming.

You've asserted that you can tell software synths apart from analog hardware synths in fully produced, mixed-down songs. And "in an instant," no less.

I'm calling BS on that assertion. Deal with it.

[Big Mouth Strikes Again]

You've asserted that you can tell software synths apart from analog hardware synths in fully produced, mixed-down songs. And "in an instant," no less.

I'm calling BS on that assertion. Deal with it.

I grew up playing classic analog synthesizers. So I know precisely what they sound like. Contrast this with "musicians" who swear that the Roland Cloud JP-8 sounds identical to a hardware Jupiter 8. They really believe this. And there is no appeal to reason or musical examples that can convince them otherwise. I suspect you are in this latter camp. So it won't be a fruitful conversation given that you have already taken a position despite all evidence to the contrary.

[Scotty]

Smacking yourself in the noggin with an emoji doesn’t make your point. You speak of evidence and have produced none to support your assertion that you possess ears sensitive enough to tell software from hardware in an instant even within the context of a finished mix. You very well might have such attributes but you’ve not demonstrated it or produced anything to firm up your position. I would assume with such a statement that you’ve got a double blind test backed uo by some research paper you can quote. I’d be interested in it if you do. If not, congratulations on your super power. I’ll take your word for it. Jesus walked on water, and Mary has a child without having sex. Anything apparently is possible.

[zerocrossing]

Smacking yourself in the noggin with an emoji doesn’t make your point.

It does when you’re just trying to convince yourself that you’re not a fraud.

[christian f.]

Last weekend I've spent a day trying to find VST synths that could match my most used (carefully selected) high end analog synths.
I'm getting very busy and I need to see if I can change something in my workflow to make it more effective and "future proof".

Long story short : I could pretty much match every hardware synth in the box especially when adding some eq and saturation.

Conclusions :
- To me, (Vintage) Analog is definitely on the finer end of the sonic spectrum for many reasons , but these things rarely matter to the listener.
- If I take my purist emotion and synth elitism out of the equation then software can produce very very similar results for the music I make.
- There are so many things to explore and discover in the digital realm that can create new sounds and genres never heard before, making analog kind of boring , no matter how good it can sound.

[christian f.]

You've asserted that you can tell software synths apart from analog hardware synths in fully produced, mixed-down songs. And "in an instant," no less.

I'm calling BS on that assertion. Deal with it.

I grew up playing classic analog synthesizers. So I know precisely what they sound like. Contrast this with "musicians" who swear that the Roland Cloud JP-8 sounds identical to a hardware Jupiter 8. They really believe this. And there is no appeal to reason or musical examples that can convince them otherwise. I suspect you are in this latter camp. So it won't be a fruitful conversation given that you have already taken a position despite all evidence to the contrary.

Your memory can't remember sounds that precisely nor can your ears tell the difference in a mastered song. You are fooling yourself.

[BONES]

Yeah, about 7 years ago I sold over half of my hardware synths. My thinking at the time was that plugins were getting better and better and that soon my hardware synths would be worthless.

I wasn't worried about "worthless" but I stopped using hardware, in production and on stage, in 2002.

But you know what? It never happened. With a few exceptions, plugins have plateaued in terms of sound quality

But they are still miles ahead of hardware now, so what would be the incentive for them to keep improving? I mean, what hardware synth can compete with DUNE or ANA 2? Nothing I've ever come across. One of the closest might have been the Alesis Micron I had for a few years but it was an absolute nightmare to work with.

I couldn't stand using synth plugins because they sounded so bad compared to my hardware synths.

You know what they say about a poor workman and his tools?

I spent 2 to 3 times as much as I had originally paid for them. I learned an important lesson, though.

And completely missed the most important lesson, something about a fool and his money...

That said, I wasn't happy about selling my CS1x to buy a CS2x, so I ended up selling the CS2x and buying another CS1x. I don't think it cost me anything, though, so not as stupid as you (but still stupid).

Never sell your hardware even if it can sometimes be a pain to use. Even if you want a new car. Because you'll regret it.

My only regrets have ever been in buying hardware. Selling it has always felt good. Mind you, over the years I've probably given away more hardware than I've actually sold. But selling stuff is a PITA so I usually just leave it to rot until it's worthless and then throw it out.

I can hear the difference between a shitty plugin record and one that uses hardware synths in an instant.

No you can't and I can prove it. Two of the songs on THIS ALBUM feature hardware prominently, the others are 100% software. Tell us which two. Don't worry, you'll hear them in the first minute of the tracks, so you don't have to listen to the whole thing.

Plugin records sound so small and grating. Just listen to any song in the Billboard "Hot 100" that uses synths. You'll notice that all of these songs sound the same. They're all written by the same teams of songwriters and they all use the same annoying synth plugins. No thanks.

So find some other songwriters and use them. I don't see what any of it has to do with any of us.

Last weekend I've spent a day trying to find VST synths that could match my most used (carefully selected) high end analog synths.
I'm getting very busy and I need to see if I can change something in my workflow to make it more effective and "future proof".

Long story short : I could pretty much match every hardware synth in the box especially when adding some eq and saturation.

Conclusions :
- To me, (Vintage) Analog is definitely on the finer end of the sonic spectrum for many reasons , but these things rarely matter to the listener.
- If I take my purist emotion and synth elitism out of the equation then software can produce very very similar results for the music I make.
- There are so many things to explore and discover in the digital realm that can create new sounds and genres never heard before, making analog kind of boring , no matter how good it can sound.

Imagine trying to do the opposite and make your hardware sound like the best softsynths. Everybody knows it would be a complete waste of time, because absolutely everybody understands that software can do so much that hardware cannot. So what these hidebound asses are left with is this bullshit assertion that shitty old hardware that people threw away 45 years ago somehow still has something of value to offer. It's laughable.

[Big Mouth Strikes Again]

That said, I wasn't happy about selling my CS1x to buy a CS2x, so I ended up selling the CS2x and buying another CS1x. I don't think it cost me anything, though, so not as stupid as you (but still stupid).

Hey Bonehead, I've tried to avoid attacking you personally. But you have failed to extend the same courtesy to me on several occasions. I would rather not spend my time arguing with a belligerent know nothing ass. Go spew your venom and vitriol on someone else. You sad, pathetic creature.

Hey, you're the first cretin I've added to my ignore list! Of course, I'm sure you'll consider that a badge of honor. Job well done, you rageaholic sociopath!

[gaggle of hermits]

Isn’t it clear that this post is from the poster to the poster as a way of convincing himself that he’s made the right choice when he’s unsure? He wants you to counter him so he’s got a chance to dig in even deeper. You’d have better luck converting the Mormons at your door to atheism.

this could probably describe 80% of forum posts. any forum.