Vengeance Producer Suite - AVENGER - 1.8.5 the main thread

[noiseboyuk]

Hi Leo,
Alan Morris is a programmer who has collaborated in many expansions of Avenger and Nexus (look for him on youtube/facebook), yesterday he answered me when I asked if the sounds or loops or sequences/arps, etc. can be used commercially if you bought the expansion and he answered me the following

Which is great, and along the lines most of us think is what the EULA means. But he isn’t the developer.

We can only speculate as to why the developer cannot amend the EULA or provide an official FAQ with a simple plain English explanation such as this. All we know is they don’t want to do either of those things.

[rod_zero]

My guess is that the lawyers writing the EULA are incompetent and didn't even care to differentiate the fair and "unfair" use properly, and the company doesn't care to correct it.

[jsp1979]

I'm sorry if I'm missing something obvious here, but I'm trying to find a link for the Avenger demo.

I understand that it is apparently an out of date demo. That's fine. I just can't seem to find where to try out the plugin and I see many posters talking about the demo.

EDIT: Found it. The tiny "Trial Version" link on Pluginboutique in the green box on the right. That's tiny.

https://www.pluginboutique.com/product/ ... nger-Synth

[twal]

I don't think anyone should worry about the copyright situation. Did Lady Gaga get sued by VPS for blatantly using the bass loop or Garrix for using a loop or something? The fact that presets in Avenger are like entire ensembles, is probably the main reason why they have the disclaimer the way they do.

Avenger is what it is. You like the company or not, you think Manuel is crass or whatever (maybe he is to the point, but he seems like such a nice guy in real life). Avengers workflow is awesome, it sounds great, probably will even sound better in 2, has a ton of capabilities, is designed to be easily accessible and intuitive, powerful, and invokes a lot of creativity in me. I think all synthesizers have pros and cons within it's sound. I think, correct if I'm wrong, some developers tend to back off on the "character" department and try to give a more across the board palette, I say this because stuff like Spire and Dune have more "discernibility" in their sound than Avenger, where as Avenger could be put in any track (it has it's own character but it's less drastic, yet it's amazing) and it would be hard to tell (actually, with Avenger it has equal potency with pluckiness as Spire without the over emphasis which is quite unique and impressive in Avenger) what it is unless there is a massive preset made which in terms of musicality, and outright force, blows away the competition- I don't mind preset banks being $75, there is a LOT of time that goes into making those ensembles, you think I wouldn't want to get paid for spending all that time? so I don't agree with the complaining. If people want to complain because they have a right, go ahead. I'm just not one of them.

[SiriusVI]

I am really surprised about dev's reaction, is he really not clever enough to see that this important matter needs a thread of his own?
And he really thinks everyone joining this tread will read the thread from the beginning to find out he repeated something every 10-20 pages? Aren't there new buyers or users every 10 - 20 days, who could have the same questions?
Don't they sell 10-20 units of Avenger per year, is business running so bad?
And I simply do not understand his reply.
Construction kits and loops are not allowed to be used in commercial tracks?
They offer drums, but you can't use them?
Really? So why do they include drums in Avenger?
Is Avenger just a kind of demo version?

Hi Leo,
Alan Morris is a programmer who has collaborated in many expansions of Avenger and Nexus (look for him on youtube/facebook), yesterday he answered me when I asked if the sounds or loops or sequences/arps, etc. can be used commercially if you bought the expansion and he answered me the following

That sounds great and is what a customer would expect, but it's NOT what the official Terms of use say.

[AxlMaldini]

I understand users who don't share the views of others sometimes. In my case I will never regret having bought Avenger and having bought almost 20 fantastic expansions. I have been composing and producing music since the 90's and there is simply no virtual synthesizer on the market today with the features, capacity, synthesis and final sound quality as VPS. Musicians who contradict this is because they have never used it in depth. Then we could discuss for years the terms of use, the 'feature request' that each musician intends, etc etc. I am impatiently waiting for version 2 of Avenger that Manuel is polishing and I will buy it without hesitation as soon as it comes out, even if it costs $300, I don't care I will pay it. I recommend to all who want to use Avenger without instance limits (I could load 50 instances without problems to test it) the Minisforum NAD9 mini PC, it's a beast with 14 Cores and 20 threads, i9-12900H Processor for less than $600.

Here's the link: https://store.minisforum.com/products/p ... 3955750133

[SiriusVI]

[...] Then we could discuss for years the terms of use, [...]

Or the developer could just be clear what the terms of use are. That would be the professional way to do it. But sure, I guess you could have cryptic terms of use and not answer to customer emails for 5 months and then let them "discuss for years the terms of use" in an online forum for all eternity.

Frankly, I just think this sucks.

[Jac459]

I bought the 5 extensions pack this afternoon as there is a discount but I must admit that even if I am generally very supportive of vendors in particular for quality product like avenger, this term of use issue is bugging me...

Anyhow, I am a fan of the guitar expansions because they are so versatiles and I also bought the cyberpunk 2 xp.... and I am somehow a bit disappointed. It sounds great, no question about it but it seems that nearly all the presets are almost ready-to-go songs, with the bass, the drums and the lead set.

Knowing the interrogation in the term of use it is more a burden than something else because we know it can't be used. So basically for any sound to be used, you have first to deconstruct the preset, suppress the 4 arpegiators, the oscillators that don't serve, and so on and so forth.

Basically, I would prefer presets simpler, easier to use. If I take phase plant for example, the macros can change totally the sound of the presets so it is quite easy to make them sound in an original way.

Do you know great expansions packs more usable?

PS: to be clear, I don't need somebody to advise me to do my own presets anyway, I use twin 3, phase plant and bitwig grid for that and don't plan to change. I prefere to use avenger as a library of great tweakable presets.

[twal]

I bought the 5 extensions pack this afternoon as there is a discount but I must admit that even if I am generally very supportive of vendors in particular for quality product like avenger, this term of use issue is bugging me...

Anyhow, I am a fan of the guitar expansions because they are so versatiles and I also bought the cyberpunk 2 xp.... and I am somehow a bit disappointed. It sounds great, no question about it but it seems that nearly all the presets are almost ready-to-go songs, with the bass, the drums and the lead set.

Knowing the interrogation in the term of use it is more a burden than something else because we know it can't be used. So basically for any sound to be used, you have first to deconstruct the preset, suppress the 4 arpegiators, the oscillators that don't serve, and so on and so forth.

Basically, I would prefer presets simpler, easier to use. If I take phase plant for example, the macros can change totally the sound of the presets so it is quite easy to make them sound in an original way.

Do you know great expansions packs more usable?

PS: to be clear, I don't need somebody to advise me to do my own presets anyway, I use twin 3, phase plant and bitwig grid for that and don't plan to change. I prefere to use avenger as a library of great tweakable presets.

I don't understand, you seem highly impressionable in different directions. You don't like the terms like others. Then you buy because of the quality of the presets. If you don't like deconstructing the presets then you don't have to which goes against what you think you can do, but here is Alan speaking about what you don't want to do but you can maybe follow along here in case you change your mind which seems possible indeed.

[Jac459]

I don't understand, you seem highly impressionable in different directions. You don't like the terms like others. Then you buy because of the quality of the presets. If you don't like deconstructing the presets then you don't have to which goes against what you think you can do, but here is Alan speaking about what you don't want to do but you can maybe follow along here in case you change your mind which seems possible indeed.

Well, I don't know exactly what you mean by impressionable, I will take it as enthusiastic and if it is the case, yes, I have a tendency to be enthusiastic about music related stuffs, but that wasn't the point of my post. It is a bit weird to start with a personal attack before answering somebody's question, hope you don't do that in real life.

The video link you are sharing shows exactly the issue. All presets are like song starters. You have a bass, a battery, a melody, pad, leads... It is very heavy. It is not the way I personally Iike composing generally but the concept is interesting. We are all doing music differently and I can understand that some people wants to start with a very advanced song, and modify it the way they want. The problem is that with the EULA we have been discussed, I think it is a very dangerous game as they may not be authorised to do it.

So again, my point was to say that if you don't allow people to use your template, just don't propose it and just give individual presets, it will be easier to use.

In the video shown, the way the presets are used is you mute what you don't use. I don't like it much, that is like having presets with a lot of bloatware.

So again, my question was, does anybody knows good VPS expansions that are more "usable" as individual presets ?

Or did I miss something on the right way to use Avenger ?

[twal]

I wasn't attacking, but I don't have much else to say, but those videos alleviate your problem if you can understand what is actually being said. You know you can turn off arp, delete oscillator, and save presets so they aren't bloated? You can then play keys. Is that too much work? If you don't want to do that then I don't know what to tell you. Why complain about the disclaimer and the expansions, yet decided to purchase a bunch? I would seriously assess what the heck you are doing here. Do what you got to do I suppose. Seems like a waste of time.

[noiseboyuk]

I’m not Jac459, but for me an issue with so many SQs is that they’re not easily browsable when looking for a specific instrument.

In general, if I’m looking for a synth bass I’ll be browsing synth basses for a starting point, drilling down using tags to get into the ballpark. An SQ might have a terrific bass sound, but I won’t find it when I need it.

So I have some sympathy. SQs make for great demos and they’re fun with friends, but they’re not very practical. 2 or 3 per XP would be just fine.

[Jac459]

I wasn't attacking, but I don't have much else to say, but those videos alleviate your problem if you can understand what is actually being said. You know you can turn off arp, delete oscillator, and save presets so they aren't bloated? You can then play keys. Is that too much work? If you don't want to do that then I don't know what to tell you. Why complain about the disclaimer and the expansions, yet decided to purchase a bunch? I would seriously assess what the heck you are doing here. Do what you got to do I suppose. Seems like a waste of time.

I don't suppose you read my post. In my first question I was talking about having to cleanup the preset and suppress the unused Oscillators and Arpegiators... So yes, sending me a YouTube link where the guy is muting or soloing the unused Oscillators or effects is ... not helping to say the least. No need to waste your time "helping" me anymore lol...

I’m not Jac459, but for me an issue with so many SQs is that they’re not easily browsable when looking for a specific instrument.

In general, if I’m looking for a synth bass I’ll be browsing synth basses for a starting point, drilling down using tags to get into the ballpark. An SQ might have a terrific bass sound, but I won’t find it when I need it.

So I have some sympathy. SQs make for great demos and they’re fun with friends, but they’re not very practical. 2 or 3 per XP would be just fine.

Thank you, that's exactly what I meant. Moreover, generally when you use a preset, you will most certainly tweak it to your liking, more or less heavily.
In this context, in my current knowledge of Avenger (I have it only since one month), it is a kind of a burden to have to reverse-engineer not only one preset but a set of sounds. In order to tweak that sound in the SQ, I need to find the part of the SQ that is interesting me.

So if I breakdown by population:
1 - People creating their own presets: don't give a shit about this discussion .
2 - People also tweaking presets purchased: I am part of this population and asking for help on how to make it effectively with Avenger.
3 - People just using presets and playing with the macros buttons: Like twal I guess, won't understand the question and ask me to mute the unused sound lol.

So my question is 2-fold and absolutely not a complain and a critic, it is just a question from somebody who has made music since decades but is new to Avenger:
As population 2, is there an efficient way to tweak the presets and if not, is there expansions that are better for that?
As population 3, isn't it a problem that the synth with arguably the most elaborated presets doesn't allow you to use them commercially ? I fall partly in this category for the vocals, I'd like to be able to use the vocals without being constrained to totally change them.

[Leo1999]

I
PS: to be clear, I don't need somebody to advise me to do my own presets anyway, I use twin 3, phase plant and bitwig grid for that and don't plan to change. I prefere to use avenger as a library of great tweakable presets.

Imo most Avenger presets (factory and xps) are demos to show its power and to impress.
Imo Avenger is superior to all synths you named as for creating presets of your own,
this is the strength of Avenger and if you take a look at the new announced features of V2, you will see that most features inspire even more to create own presets and that's good.
It takes some learning curve like with most
synths.
I think 3 - 10 xps give you more than enough to tweak, shape and create new sounds.
If you just want to choose and use presets
Diva or Xpand 2 might be a better choice or to remain in the same price category maybe omnisphere = Avenger + 5 xps.

[noiseboyuk]

As population 2, is there an efficient way to tweak the presets and if not, is there expansions that are better for that?

I only have 7 or 8 official XPs, and they're all in a similar ballpark of 15-20 SQs. The one exception is BigTone 2 which has 8.