Question about piano in SS2

[Caleb]

Hi Squidsadelic. I have a question regarding the piano in the up-coming SS2 package.

I've heard its pretty good and I just wanted to clarify some things.

My best pianos are probably on SS1 currently.

I finally retrieved my Roland UM4 from my brother so that I could hook up my Yamaha P80 to my computer again, and I was playing through some of the SS1 patches and I'm always confused as to why they don't sound better than the factory sound on the P80 itself.

I know SS1 probably has more sample space allocated for the C7S Grand60 (is that the best SS1 piano by the way?), but it's not as playable in terms of velocity response and it's not as clear and beautiful sounding as the P80.

Now maybe this is more a tribute to Yamaha who I personally think are great digital piano makers - but I'm wondering if I'm going to be really excited with the big-ass piano on the SS2?

I hear stories about people jamming with SS2 at various shows and I think - wow - it's really playable live and then when I try with SS1 I'm a bit disappointed. I'm just curious if SS2 is going to put a big fat smile on the face of the pianist inside me.

Caleb

[Squids]

Well, it's subjective. I like the Yamaha digital pianos too. They treat the piano quite a bit (even have to in order to make it sound good and fit it into a tiny space). That's what makes it sound so bright and clear. My approach tends to be more natural and actually in a track I think our C7s sound more like a real miked piano than the digital pianos which to me just sound like a digital piano.

On the other hand, I've found that when playing live with a band sometimes those digital pianos cut through really well. Also when you are playing it on its own it can be nice especially on the attacks which are hyped note by note. Although where you really hear a big difference even between your P80 and the C7 sus is listening to the sustains. Digital pianos tend to be looped early to get them smaller and they are more "static" in the sustain than a real piano. Most of the samples SR does for pianos are over 20 megs (the one you mentioned is 60 megs and there's an amazing one on SS2 that is 152 megs!). This larger size allows for longer durations before the loop. That combined with meticulous seamless looping gives more of the effect of a real grand piano sustain.

One thing you can do, thanks to the built-in fx of Sonik Synth 2 (courtesy of the ST2 engine) is use the parametric EQ and compression to get more of that crisp digital piano sound but retain the better sustain. Also, another thing typically missing in digital pianos is a real growl in the low end with timbral change between the keys. This is because the low notes tend to take up more megs of ram because they have longer sustains. So, often a digital piano will have one sample stretched across an octave and a half or two octaves. With a 152 meg piano there's a different sample on every other key practically and that brings out more character in the low end. Even the 60 meg piano has a lot of this (in fact, even some of the smaller ones too.... remember that the digital pianos are 8-16 megs! although they use data compression sometimes).

The other thing to compare is the upper end of the keyboard too. The individual sound of the hammers up there with more samples across the keys makes it sound more like a real piano than digital pianos tend to.

So, I think a comparison of the finer points reveals some trade-offs. One might be good in one way of playing and another might be good in a different context. In fact, that is why I like having many options for pianos personally. You never know.

Oh, as far as velocity response, you can tweak that in Sonik Synth 2 with either the curves or with the velocity to amp control. That's DEFINITELY something to "taste" and also depends on the controller too. In fact, a few tweaks to the velocity to amp or velocity to filter could make all the difference since each controller and person's style of playing can make it sound very different.

It's a delicate thing and we don't have control over having it meet everyone's tastes or sound the way we intended when they are playing it with different controllers. For instance, if there is modulation of the filter and the controller isn't sending the full modulation amount then it could sound dark when it is supposed to have more of a dark to bright sound.

Maybe I'll do a tips and tricks on how to taylor your own child presets of pianos to your tastes. Stuff like what I mentioned might help people get more of a smile out of their piano samples instead of just leaving it up to "hit and miss".

[Caleb]

Maybe I'll do a tips and tricks on how to taylor your own child presets of pianos to your tastes. Stuff like what I mentioned might help people get more of a smile out of their piano samples instead of just leaving it up to "hit and miss".

Sounds like a great idea Squids.

Thanks for the post.

I do find that the digital piano doesn't sound as great in the higher registers as your sampled C7s.

But I was having quite a mid of difficulty with the sound of the SS1 C7 in the lower registers. Hitting D0 (I think that's the right key) almost sounded out of tune or something. Its sound didn't gel with the chord I was playing (I think it was a simple Bb major although it might have been something else).

I'm awful with things like this as I find it hard to appreciate the analogue or accoustic traits of instruments. It's been a while now since I played a "real" piano and maybe I've been spoilt by the perfectly in tune digital piano.

I agree about the response. If you can tailor it in the ST2 engine that's great. You can quite often be put off by this in a piano module more easily that problems in the sound. In fact, I think the velocity response can make you perceive the sound to be worse than it is.

Personally I will be trying to program the velocity response to be exactly that of my Yamaha P80 as I play it in isolation enough that I want to have that same playability comfort with whatever piano sample I'm using. Anything else makes me feel like I'm not really playing at all. You feel dislocated and strange. Of course latency may also play a part in this.

Caleb

[pricer]

First and foremost, Caleb i can whole-heartedly recommend the ST2 engine for piano's, it's far more customisable and the extra options from the ST2 engine do allow more flexibility in editing for your playing preference.

Now, going off on a little tangent here but i just recieved some free PMI pianos (courtesy of the latest Music Tech magazine - issue 21), where you get the 3 layer versions of the Emperor (joy!) and the Old Lady. What i notice more in these pianos, is how brighter they are in comparison to the SR acoustic pianos.

These PMI pianos share more in common with your typical bright digital piano sound, sharper and colder sounding - which is suprising for a Bosendorfer considering the bass notes are part of it's appeal...in genereal, i'm guessing different rooms, mic techniques etc to that of SS1/ST2 - for the reverb is burned onto the samples as well (though thankfully no DTMF tone watermarks, like the last PMI demo's that were out a while back).

As for SR and IK pianos, I personally love the 1920's piano from ST2XL and SS1's C7, both are full of warmth and detail. I can't wait for this SS2 152mb beast to be released either.

Onto playing live, one other technique you could use live is layering say a digital piano and the C7 together, allowing say a CP80 to cut through the mix, but with the classier tone and detail of the C7 acoustic piano to back it up. Maybe delaying the attack of the C7 so you just get the tail, making a nice hybrid mix of both pianos...just a thought.

It's suprising how much digital piano is heard still on commercial records, in most cases i gather it's for stylistic rather than budget reasons - for example, to just give maybe that dated 80's feel to the track (like the new Gwen Stefani album), or for a hard hitting dancesound (ie. Korg M1 piano sound - used in nearly every early 90's rave tune).

Speaking of production, i love the new Keane album (lots of Yamaha CP70), the new Manic Street Preachers album has some nice piano parts too, as well as some really nice synth pads - produced by Tony Visconti who had a similar knack of great sounding piano and pads on David Bowie's Heathen album too.

[Caleb]

Just out of curiosity - there's two C7's in SS1, one just says C7 and one says C7 2pac. What's the difference? Is one better than the other?

I'm enjoying the C7 more as I use it. I'm guessing my perceptions were coloured quite alot by latency and performance settings rather than the sound.

I'm also looking forward to the big guy in SS2.

Caleb

[Squids]

Those are good ideas. By the way, as far as brightness goes, sometimes a little tweak on the cutoff filter can help. Often times there is modulation of the filter with velocity and depending on your controller it could need a litte help in opening that filter. I say this because some of the grand pianos are actually very bright from SR. But, I like to have a sort of smooth warm to zing with velocity from Yamaha controllers. I've noticed that it sounds different when played from other controllers so I have to tweak it sometimes. Just a suggestion. You can save back child presets of various settings of the filter, velocity to filter or amp, curve or even some of the EQ, compression etc. you can add too (compression is GREAT on piano- really adds some bite).

I like your CP idea. I do that. By the way, the new CP grands in SS2 are fantastic. It really sounds like the real deal. I miss my old CP70. Great feel to it as well (that is what it is- too bad there isn't a controller with THAT feel... except maybe that Kawai which is a little bit like that).

I have an interesting grand piano that I am sampling for Studiophonik. I don't know if it will make it on the final (you never know) but the concept is cool and I'll bet you'll like it. I have Helpinstill pickups (which are similar to the CP elec grand pickups). Well, with Studiophonik a lot of the sounds have a dual stereo oscillator thing going on where you can mix between two different elements in one single patch. So, for this piano you'd be able to mix between stereo mics and the monophonic punchy pick up sound. Cool eh?

[pricer]

Wow, that sounds great - i think that is the one of the few clear areas which could cleary define where ST3/SS3 go (jeez, SS2 is not even out and i'm on about SS3. Where you could have large combi instruments and each channel is allocated a different microphone.

As there are times (as stellar as the sounds are) when say i just want to hear much more of say the hammer action of the 1920's upright, or be able to mix drums professionally, it may even give the chance for 5.1 mixing, like Absynth 3 - imagine some of those SR pads in surround sound. I think the freedom it'll allow the users will create increase the great community activity here, not to mention some cracking presets by Squids and co.

Caleb 2pac is the data compressed version, i think of it as a 'lite' version, just if you're running low on RAM allocation.

[Caleb]

Caleb 2pac is the data compressed version, i think of it as a 'lite' version, just if you're running low on RAM allocation.

Ah thanks.
Will use that under render time then.

Caleb

[Squids]

Wow, that sounds great - i think that is the one of the few clear areas which could cleary define where ST3/SS3 go (jeez, SS2 is not even out and i'm on about SS3. Where you could have large combi instruments and each channel is allocated a different microphone.

As there are times (as stellar as the sounds are) when say i just want to hear much more of say the hammer action of the 1920's upright, or be able to mix drums professionally, it may even give the chance for 5.1 mixing, like Absynth 3 - imagine some of those SR pads in surround sound. I think the freedom it'll allow the users will create increase the great community activity here, not to mention some cracking presets by Squids and co.

Caleb 2pac is the data compressed version, i think of it as a 'lite' version, just if you're running low on RAM allocation.

Pricer, if you want you can pre-order Sonik Synth 5 which has sounds that connect directly to your muse and read your mind with combis that layer your emotional elements.

[Caleb]

Pricer, if you want you can pre-order Sonik Synth 5 which has sounds that connect directly to your muse and read your mind with combis that layer your emotional elements.

You'll have to remember as moderator to delete these posts before you release Sonik Synth 5 or you could end up with some trouble on your hands.



Caleb