v5 Browser regressions

[Kirkwood West]

smart collections cannot be edited under the new browser scheme.

I sent that in as a bug report...

awesome. then i will just try my best to trust the bitwig crew to make the best choices for us. Doing my best to inform them of my needs/wishes.

[Hanz Meyzer]

I want to mention the also bizarre behaviour of the old search. I guess it did not change in the new browser: The search currently internally splits plugin and preset names by camelcase, so a plugin like "VeryNicePlugin" will be split into the three words "very", "nice", and "plugin". But not for the first 3 letters.... This leads into weird search and unexpected/missing results. If you now search for "verynice", the plugin won't be listed. This is a not expected bahaviour. Also Bitwig has problems to find names if you enter the first three letters.

So the way it is currently implemented leads to missing results. It should work just like a regular search in sql or sqlite databases works, or in google or whatever:

1. The search term words are splitted instead and concatted with AND.
2. Each split word needs to be surrounded with LIKE '%searchword%'
3. The entries of the database are simple, complete strings, not split in any way, just as you read it.
4. The database should aggregate each possible target search string into a text, for example merging vendor name, plugin name, tags...
5. You need to enter at least 2 characters or so.

Examples of improvement:

1. You search for "veryn plugin", VeryNicePlugin is listed. Term was transformed to "WHERE aggregated_search_column LIKE '%veryn%' AND LIKE '%plugin%'"
2. You search for "nice plugin", VeryNicePlugin is listed.
3. You search for "waveshaper", MWaveshaper is listed.
4. You search for „waveshaper mb“, MWaveShaperMB is listed.

[Trancit]

I want to mention the also bizarre behaviour of the old search. I guess it did not change in the new browser: The search currently internally splits plugin and preset names by camelcase, so a plugin like "VeryNicePlugin" will be split into the three words "very", "nice", and "plugin". But not for the first 3 letters.... This leads into weird search and unexpected/missing results. If you now search for "verynice", the plugin won't be listed. This is a not expected bahaviour. Also Bitwig has problems to find names if you enter the first three letters.
...

I don´t know if it is related, but I emailed with them because I have some weird sorting with VSTplugins and it turned out there is a bug atm with plugin names where i.e. the name starts with mixed lower and upper case letters... perhaps the search is suffering with something like this as well...

On top they told me, that there will be a pure alphabetical sorting mode too additional to their current "Bitwig first"...

[Enrize]

Most of inital regressions i've posted has been fixed in Beta 6. Thank you!

[pdxindy]

Most of inital regressions i've posted has been fixed in Beta 6. Thank you!

The browser is getting there... I'm still figuring out the changes in Beta 6. What still needs improvement?

[BobDog]

I may be stupid (I am), but how do you change the sort order now with the new changes?

[pdxindy]

I may be stupid (I am), but how do you change the sort order now with the new changes?

Right click - Sort Order (3 options)

[BobDog]

Thanks

[ThomasHelzle]

IMO the whole setup process and configuration is now a total mess.
You have to hunt around to set the different contexts, each context has it's own sorting order etc, many of the new options are spread out all over the place and as far from intuitive as can be, so I think they should totally change how one configures the browser:
- Have one setting if you want context awareness or not. I never wanted that and think it's idiotic to hide one of the major strengths of BWS - being able to put any device anywhere - with this pseudo-intelligent thingy.
- Have one full page with browser settings, either in preferences or inside the browser itself instead of the current clickfest.
- I needed somebody on Discord to show me how to create a view that only shows devices and plugins instead of everything, everywhere, all at once in a silly order. That is not intuitive at all.

I never needed any help for 95% of the old popup browser (I don't use the sidebrowser since they botched it up back when the popup browser was first introduced).

The other thing I find still horrible is the visual hodgepodge presentation.
The old browser had one clear language - text. All basically the same size and all the sorting options in a flat, same-weight hierarchy, there for me to directly access when I needed it, or to hide if I didn't. I looked at it without being overwhelmed and it did exactly what a browser should do - let me find stuff.
Devices, presets etc. were clearly divided so I was able to decide myself what I am looking for.

The new browser introduces a ton of different representations, icons with and without text, large ones, small ones, text that is buttons or not, in several badly presented hierarchies.
The Quick-select icons have no text and the icons don't all speak to me.
You have to dig into tags to reveal further sub-hierarchies where every context is somehow different which then has more icons to again sub-select stuff...
But the worst is the layout on the right when something is selected.
There is absolutely no clear weighting for relevance, it's just everything put on top of each other without any structure I can see.
Bad ++

All in all instead of what I loved about Bitwig, the very clear and no-bullshit approach to a GUI, this now represents a clicki-bunti gamificated mess that somehow tries to be "exciting" or whatever it tries to do, but in my case only makes me cringe each time I have to open it.
It actually hurts my brain to just look at it.
Doing anything feels like work now.

And if that should be the start of a trend, I fear for Bitwig, since that looks more like one of those things Native Instruments throws up these days. Piles of "content" and presets with exciting names and images to drive GAS instead of innovative plugins and instruments.

ATM I am unsure if I should just stay with 4.4.10 or try to ignore the browser as much as I can.

The MSEG is nice, but not a must have for me, the global modulation is a good start, but I lived without it in the past.
Not sure I will renew my license if this is the future of BWS.

We'll see.

If I could select between the two browsers, I'd be perfectly fine with keeping the old one.

So yeah, neuro-diversity is a thing, and I don't think they have that on their radar.

Cheers,

Tom

[Trancit]

IMO the whole setup process and configuration is now a total mess.
You have to hunt around to set the different contexts, each context has it's own sorting order etc, many of the new options are spread out all over the place and as far from intuitive as can be, so I think they should totally change how one configures the browser:
- Have one setting if you want context awareness or not. I never wanted that and think it's idiotic to hide one of the major strengths of BWS - being able to put any device anywhere - with this pseudo-intelligent thingy.
- Have one full page with browser settings, either in preferences or inside the browser itself instead of the current clickfest.
- I needed somebody on Discord to show me how to create a view that only shows devices and plugins instead of everything, everywhere, all at once in a silly order. That is not intuitive at all.

I never needed any help for 95% of the old popup browser (I don't use the sidebrowser since they botched it up back when the popup browser was first introduced).

The other thing I find still horrible is the visual hodgepodge presentation.
The old browser had one clear language - text. All basically the same size and all the sorting options in a flat, same-weight hierarchy, there for me to directly access when I needed it, or to hide if I didn't. I looked at it without being overwhelmed and it did exactly what a browser should do - let me find stuff.
Devices, presets etc. were clearly divided so I was able to decide myself what I am looking for.

The new browser introduces a ton of different representations, icons with and without text, large ones, small ones, text that is buttons or not, in several badly presented hierarchies.
The Quick-select icons have no text and the icons don't all speak to me.
You have to dig into tags to reveal further sub-hierarchies where every context is somehow different which then has more icons to again sub-select stuff...
But the worst is the layout on the right when something is selected.
There is absolutely no clear weighting for relevance, it's just everything put on top of each other without any structure I can see.
Bad ++

All in all instead of what I loved about Bitwig, the very clear and no-bullshit approach to a GUI, this now represents a clicki-bunti gamificated mess that somehow tries to be "exciting" or whatever it tries to do, but in my case only makes me cringe each time I have to open it.
It actually hurts my brain to just look at it.
Doing anything feels like work now.

And if that should be the start of a trend, I fear for Bitwig, since that looks more like one of those things Native Instruments throws up these days. Piles of "content" and presets with exciting names and images to drive GAS instead of innovative plugins and instruments.

ATM I am unsure if I should just stay with 4.4.10 or try to ignore the browser as much as I can.

The MSEG is nice, but not a must have for me, the global modulation is a good start, but I lived without it in the past.
Not sure I will renew my license if this is the future of BWS.

We'll see.

If I could select between the two browsers, I'd be perfectly fine with keeping the old one.

So yeah, neuro-diversity is a thing, and I don't think they have that on their radar.

Cheers,

Tom

I cannot agree more... especially on these super silly "every context has seperate settings" nonsense... what a nightmare to setup...
And to me happened the same... I needed the support to explain me how to see just all plugins in one list...
I am able to use it more or less but in general this has turned into a complete mess and is by far not what I would call enjoyable to use...
For me this destroyed the whole Browser experience (even if I already found the old one quite click intense) in Bitwig and is now just a necessary evil which works more or less after having learned the new steps... but again... enjoyable is something else...

[pdxindy]

especially on these super silly "every context has seperate settings" nonsense... what a nightmare to setup...

Every context always had separate saved settings. That is not new. It has been one of my favorite features for a long time.

[moxxi]

I like all the features of Bitwig 5 except the browser, which is ugly, bad and unnecessarily complicated. The old browser is superior vs the new imo… It would be nice if v5 had an option to switch to the old one (somewhere in the settings, and that would require a Bitwig restart, which is doable but probably won't happen )…

[carlca]

Most of inital regressions i've posted has been fixed in Beta 6. Thank you!

Here is a workflow that worked really well in beta 5 which they have royally screwed up in beta 6…

Compare this workflow in beta 5…

[1] press B to get browser
[2] Type "fm" to highlight FM-4 synth
[3] press cursor down

SCR-20230429-onis.png

[4] cursor right shows preset list AND has 16 Flavors in focus.

SCR-20230429-onxx.png

[5] navigation through the presets is possible

SCR-20230429-ooiv.png

[6] cursor left at ANY point in the preset list returns focus to the device list

SCR-20230429-oozb.png

This worked very well as a workflow. Now with beta 6 this has been ruined…

[1] press B to get browser

[2] Type "fm" to highlight FM-4 synth

[3] press cursor down

[4] press cursor right to access preset list

At this point one used to be able to cursor down to navigate and preview the FM-4 presets.

Now one has to press cursor up followed by cursor down before the 16 Flavors preset is in focus, and the list can be navigated.

Worse, there seems to be no easy shortcut to return focus to the device list.

This begs the question, is this a version control problem? Is one dev checking in changes that improve the situation eg. in beta 5, only for that good work to be undone by another dev checking in changes which do not include the "good" changes from the previous build?

There is clearly something going wrong when a set of changes eg. beta 4 to beta 5 are a massive step forward and the next set of changes eg. beta 5 to beta 6 are a complete balls-up. Come on Bitwig, sort it out…!

I realise that this is a very specific example, but it does hint at a wider lack of a overall guiding principle to the design of the browser, a lack of intellectual coherence, as it were. It’s going to be no good if the browser has lots of flashy, but ultimately unconnected good points, if they don’t dovetail together into a decent working unit.

[pdxindy]

This begs the question, is this a version control problem?

Send them an email and ask. They made lots of changes with the browser in beta 6 and it might just be a regression oops or maybe a purposeful change. Us users don't know and we can only pointlessly speculate. Ask them, and report your likes/dislikes about the workflow. Now is the time because they are working a lot on the browser and listening to user feedback.

[carlca]

I’ve already sent an email to beta@bitwig.com expressing much the same views.