Ooh, I like This Modular Rack...

[ghettosynth]

There are other cheap alternatives besides Behringer though, that don't just rip off other companies' designs. Ladik, Doepfer, Dreadbox etc.

These are all reasonable choices, but none of them can compete with Behringer on value.I have a few Doepfer modules and for basic modules, I prefer them over Behringer. I think that they have the right idea in terms of producing basic designs and I wish that Behringer would copy their approach using their ability to mass produce things. Let's see a whole run of $29 basic modules that are so straightforward that nobody could say that they're copying.

But, when you compare the slightly more advanced modules between Doepfer and Behringer, e.g., basic sequencers, Behringer is much much cheaper.

And there's AE Modular for a much cheaper option (if very fiddly with those tiny wires). And lots of very good semi-modulars that are quite a bit cheaper than Eurorack.

That's basically shit. I'm going to recommend Behringer all night and all day over crap that like.

I find the recent copying of other modules that are in production weird. Frankly, I'm not as offended as some, if what they're copying isn't copyright or patent protected, then get over it. I find it weird because it's modular and we know that they can design things. All they need to do is to produce basic modules at the sub $50 level with silver panels and simple lettering and they will sell from now until forever. Well, IMNSHO, of course. They could fire half of their design department, start with the guy who put the stupid sin wave bullshit on the front of Baths.

[vurt]

There are other cheap alternatives besides Behringer though, that don't just rip off other companies' designs. Ladik, Doepfer, Dreadbox etc.

And there's AE Modular for a much cheaper option (if very fiddly with those tiny wires). And lots of very good semi-modulars that are quite a bit cheaper than Eurorack.

And software modular is really great these days, not the same feel as hardware of course but VCV Rack is pretty amazing.

i cant argue with any of that, however, i did say when i was starting out.
at which point, there was only really doepfer in the budget range, and a couple of odd other modules, most of which were difficult to get here in the uk.
and software modular could have been great, just the computers were shite so didnt have the power

these are going to be cheap and get people a start, not just at basic modules like doepfer offer (many of which are great!!) but the ones they see everyone raving about.

i do wish there was some way it could be done, whereby they at least pay a percentage maybe to the original designer but being me, im afraid i cant argue against the democratisation of music tools

[foosnark]

I find it weird because it's modular and we know that they can design things. All they need to do is to produce basic modules at the sub $50 level with silver panels and simple lettering and they will sell from now until forever.

That is the main part of my frustration with them tbh -- that they're not designing stuff, but cloning things. I feel like they're trolling, daring other companies to sue them.

You can make all kinds of quad LFOs without blatantly cloning Batumi, and you can make all kinds of dual function generators with added "control voltage processor" stuff without making exactly a Maths with a slightly worse layout.

[SHall1000]

Yes I get why people are upset and it does seem unnecessary when B. could have made something similar but different enough (just as other boutique manufacturers do) and presumably still for an attractive price given their economies of scale. It does seem lazy on their part.
But it is complicated. We make value judgments between price and Brand perceptions all the time (own label biscuits, washing powder for example vs branded equivalents), assuming there is no legal patent or copyright infringement.
I suspect people’s reaction is as much about their emotional attachment to Make Noise and the gear they love (pride of ownership and all that) as much as anything else.
Make Noise is a business and I suspect they have made a tidy sum out of Maths given how popular the module is so I am not sure exactly how sorry to feel for them.
But it is complicated.

[justin3am]

These are all reasonable choices, but none of them can compete with Behringer on value.

They can't compete on PRICE but I would argue they can absolutely compete on VALUE. With the other companies mentioned, if you ask for help you will often end up talking to someone who had a hand in designing the module, which is more valuable to me than a low price.

There is A LOT to dislike about Behringer. I'm not going to go into detail because most of what I know isn't intended to be public and it comes from people who work/used to work for MusicTribe and while compelling they can't tell the full story from all perspectives. Still a good deal of the stuff that B does out in public is worthy of critique (the Peter Kirn fiasco?). But should their practices influence what you buy? You can only decide for yourself. As they say, there is no ethical consumption and all that.

Ultimately, we all make decisions about what we buy and we should only ever have to justify that to ourselves. I'm always happy when someone who thought they couldn't afford cool gear, is able to get their hands on something that is inspiring to them. Hell, I saw a TD-3 in a local Goodwill. If some kid got their hands on that and learned to rock it, I would be so stoked.

What I hate most is how the discourse around Behringer becomes so divisive. People want to defend their choices from both sides and it just becomes a toxic debate, where the only outcome is bitterness. That aspect sucks balls.

[Stefken]

I suspect people’s reaction is as much about their emotional attachment to Make Noise and the gear they love (pride of ownership and all that) as much as anything else.
Make Noise is a business and I suspect they have made a tidy sum out of Maths given how popular the module is so I am not sure exactly how sorry to feel for them.
But it is complicated.

Personally, I think the eurorack world needs (quite) a bit of democratisation. If you see that Behringer is putting forward a price that is about 30% percent of what Make Noise asks for it, then i m pretty certain that Make Noise has cashed in pretty well on this module.
And modules like the Morphagene going for 570 euro? You can get a full MS-20 mini synth for that kind of money. So yeah, eurorack prices need to rebalance in my opinion.

The inverse is true in software land where the plugin market is so crammed and the buyers have become so entitled that small developers are working for scraps.

I find the recent copying of other modules that are in production weird. Frankly, I'm not as offended as some, if what they're copying isn't copyright or patent protected, then get over it. I find it weird because it's modular and we know that they can design things. All they need to do is to produce basic modules at the sub $50 level with silver panels and simple lettering and they will sell from now until forever.

Sure. But Behringer is acting according to their mission statement : bring synths to the crowds at low cost. I think there is value in making copies, so people can have 'exactly' the same but for a lot less money. Can t afford a minimoog and that is what you want: here ye go at 5% of the price.
That being said, creating some stuff on their own, would also have value (they did pretty good on the Neutron). So an 'AND' instead of an 'OR' would be nice.

[ghettosynth]

These are all reasonable choices, but none of them can compete with Behringer on value.

They can't compete on PRICE but I would argue they can absolutely compete on VALUE. With the other companies mentioned, if you ask for help you will often end up talking to someone who had a hand in designing the module, which is more valuable to me than a low price.

I don't want to go down this rabbit hole too far, but that isn't what I meant and you really can't twist something that has a minor value to you to what I'm talking about. I have yet to ask any vendor for help for any working module. So who I talk to is really of no moment and would have limited value to me.

What "I" meant by value is the features and build quality for the price. Yes we can criticize some aspects of that, but let me be very clear, I have some modules that are absolute shit build quality from small vendors. Behringer delivers great value at the price, even given some of their weird choices, and even given where they cut corners.

Bringing up dirt is off topic and I'd appreciate if we could leave that out of this thread.

[ghettosynth]

I suspect people’s reaction is as much about their emotional attachment to Make Noise and the gear they love (pride of ownership and all that) as much as anything else.
Make Noise is a business and I suspect they have made a tidy sum out of Maths given how popular the module is so I am not sure exactly how sorry to feel for them.
But it is complicated.

Personally, I think the eurorack world needs (quite) a bit of democratisation. If you see that Behringer is putting forward a price that is about 30% percent of what Make Noise asks for it, then i m pretty certain that Make Noise has cashed in pretty well on this module.
And modules like the Morphagene going for 570 euro? You can get a full MS-20 mini synth for that kind of money. So yeah, eurorack prices need to rebalance in my opinion.

Yep. I'll say it, I like Maths, but it's overpriced! If B can enter the market and sell a low budget Maths for $99 then you're going to have to compete with that. Some aspects of Maths are clearly better, but I have a black and gold Maths and it has a shit panel.

I find the recent copying of other modules that are in production weird. Frankly, I'm not as offended as some, if what they're copying isn't copyright or patent protected, then get over it. I find it weird because it's modular and we know that they can design things. All they need to do is to produce basic modules at the sub $50 level with silver panels and simple lettering and they will sell from now until forever.

Sure. But Behringer is acting according to their mission statement : bring synths to the crowds at low cost. I think there is value in making copies, so people can have 'exactly' the same but for a lot less money. Can t afford a minimoog and that is what you want: here ye go at 5% of the price.
That being said, creating some stuff on their own, would also have value (they did pretty good on the Neutron). So an 'AND' instead of an 'OR' would be nice.

Yeah, I was going to say something similar here. They are intentionally copying popular modules because they will sell. They want people to make the association so instead of buying a Maths, you can buy an Abacus. I still find it a bit weird in modular. Maths is a Serge/Buchla VC controlled slope with some attenuverters and some additional CV processing. But, this relates to my earlier comment, I don't think that everyone who owns or wants to own a Maths knows much about the origin, so they won't buy the basic modules but they will buy the Abacus. It will fly off of the shelves.

[justin3am]

I don't want to go down this rabbit hole too far, but that isn't what I meant and you really can't twist something that has a minor value to you to what I'm talking about. I have yet to ask any vendor for help for any working module. So who I talk to is really of no moment and would have limited value to me.

What "I" meant by value is the features and build quality for the price. Yes we can criticize some aspects of that, but let me be very clear, I have some modules that are absolute shit build quality from small vendors. Behringer delivers great value at the price, even given some of their weird choices, and even given where they cut corners.

Sorry about that, I didn't intend my comments to be as intense as they may have come across. I don't take myself as seriously as it may seem.

I understand what you meant, my point is that value is subjective. Just because I can make an argument about something, doesn't mean I'm right.

When I got started in modular, a big appeal was talking to the makers about their passion for the stuff they make. You could get patch ideas from Dieter Doepfer, Tony Rolando or Josh Holley and you could share your patch ideas with them. Unfortunately those days are long gone, even for most of the smaller vendors. It's just part of the natural progression of things. I remember Tony talking about saving up and using birthday money to cover the first run of ModDeMod modules and what a satisfying (but also frustrating) experience that was. It was very inspiring to me. I'm sure there is a similar anecdote about Uli. I know he's a passionate guy too.

Of course you are right about 'dirt'. I'll stay out of it.

[Stefken]

Like the farmer said. There is enough dirt in me boots to last me a lifetime. No sense digging up more.

[SHall1000]

Just read this:

Unfortunately, chemicals used in the creation of vactrols mean that the Model 292t is not going to be available in the EU. Tiptop says it’s working on vactrol alternatives that it hopes will be able to replicate that classic sound.

For some reason this makes me want to run out and get a LPG, maybe an A-101-2 or something. Must be the FOMO like we had for toilet paper and tomatoes recently.

[vurt]

Just read this:

Unfortunately, chemicals used in the creation of vactrols mean that the Model 292t is not going to be available in the EU. Tiptop says it’s working on vactrol alternatives that it hopes will be able to replicate that classic sound.

For some reason this makes me want to run out and get a LPG, maybe an A-101-2 or something. Must be the FOMO like we had for toilet paper and tomatoes recently.

does this include the uk?
is this one of the rules we kept?

[WatchTheGuitar]

Don’t know, we certainly have enough vax trolls.

[SHall1000]

Looks like it

There is also bad news. Model 292T will not be available in Europe and UK. This is due to the fact that products with vactrols are not allowed in these countries. More precisely, light-dependent resistors (LDRs), aka vactrols require the use of Cadmium Sulphide that are subsequently prohibited in the EU and UK.

Strange because Thomann and Signal Sounds are selling the Doepfers.

[WatchTheGuitar]

I think that’s the same compound as Cadmium Yellow, used to use it painting in art lessons at school as a kid, great big tins of it powdered, and now it’s deemed far too dangerously toxic to have even inside electronics.

Mind you, my dad used to wear a watch with a radioactive dial so it glowed in the dark so maybe this is health and safety gone sane.