loops - what do you do with/to them

[Lunch Money]

I like control of the composition down to the velocity of each note

It's almost like you answered your own question!

I know that I'm not a rock drummer, so I have no shame using quality rock drum loops. If I'm in a band jamming with a bunch of other musicians, I don't stop the drummer and say "OK, on beat 3 of that measure, could you hit the snare just a little softer?"

Computer musicians tend to be control freaks, and there's nothing wrong with that, either... but it's not the only way of working, and it doesn't mean that somebody else's work is less legitimate because they chose to "collaborate" with a much more talented drummer.

Greg

[pHz]

once you remember loops (however you get hold of them) dont have to be only 1 or 2 bars long and dont have to all start and end at the same time then the definition of what is and what isnt loop-based music starts to blur ...

... record yourself improvising for 3 1/2 minutes ... use it once in your track and youre linear ... use it more than that and its a loop ...

slainte rob

[ouroboros]

...finish it and you're practically a god.

[Sascha Franck]

once you remember loops (however you get hold of them) dont have to be only 1 or 2 bars long and dont have to all start and end at the same time then the definition of what is and what isnt loop-based music starts to blur ...

THAT's one of the advances of recycled loops. Adding (slight or drastic) variations in intervals making musical sense is just freaking easy. So you can just leave out a snare or add one in seconds - whatever suits your taste.

[cold c]

Interesting to read about other peoples' working methods.

For making loops I sometimes start with any drum sampler (DR-008) or synth or both, combined with slicydrummer to quickly generate some rhythmic sound as a starting point.

This is then usually run through some effects like izotope trash demo version, or various VST freeware distortions, amp sims, FSUs, (or renderred to wav and loaded in the Reason demo version's Redrum then renderred through multiple scream 4s via ReWire).

The resulting wav is then either used in energyXT's sampler (using the slicing feature) in conjuction with the energyXT MIDI composition/randomisation to rearrange the drum hits (works well on percussion), or alternatively using ACID PRO to manually slice and arrange (combining with other sliced sounds) into a new loop for use as the starting point to a "song".

This resultant loop itself is likely to get processed/sliced again during the construction of the song in SX.

Also remember that many synths allow audio to be processed through them, so rhythmic loops can be made melodic etc.

There are many tools available for using loops creatively, some are even free or you may already have them in your sequencer/sampler of choice so you may as well try them.

[soulata]

yes, needs more cowbell!!

yeah, I definetly need to hear more cowbell



Back to topic: I'm thinking of using loops because I'm doing some arrangements for a pop singer on a tight budget and don't have much time - it's only going to be for a demo probably, but I'd still like to get most of it.

thanks

k

[Vegetarian]

If you can get some good quality (and preferably royalty free) loops to throw around the place it can save a lot of time you could otherwise spend actually working on the production. You could always make some shitty ones too so that you don't forget that you need to do something about that part, too (who the hell's going to forget to change a drum part that sounds like you played it on a frying pan? ), but for your purposes I don't think you want it that rough

[declassified]

1.) If they are too slow, ReCycle them.
2.) If they are too fast, Slow them down using Live.
3.) Run them through SupaTrigga. It is great for getting a feel of drum arrangements. Amen + SupaTrigga = instant breakbeat heaven
4.) Layer them. Seperate them from each other by notching frequencies they have in common.
For example, take a LoFi Hiphop loop and cut off the high frequencies, then add a jazzy ride loop and cut off the low frequencies.
5.) Seperate layered loops from each other by choosing two different loops that complement each other rhythmically. The second loop should have accents where the first one has none.
6.) Find loops of different instruments that sound like some kind of composition when thrown together. Then slice them and compose your own
7.) Retrigger loops on 1, 4, and 7 (on a 16-step-sequencer).

My two cents...

[Sascha Franck]

OK, here's a few things I'm doing with recycled loops in action:
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/SF_Loopdemo.mp3

There's nothing extreme to listen to, but to me it's exactly those possibilities that I use and love loops (and especially recycled ones) for.
I added the lame bass/e-piano backing because the loops are from commercial CDs (drumloop: Neil Conti's "Funky Drums From Hell" which I got ages ago as an audio CD, percussion loop: Mouse T's "Overdub Sensation").

- 2 bars of the loop in it's raw form, almost at original tempo (track is at 86BPM, original was 83 I think). It's noticeable that it doesn't lock in with the quantized bass.
- 2 bars of the loop quantized. Now it locks in with the bass.
- 2 bars of the loop with the EXS (in which I loaded it partially) decay dragged down. All of a sudden the reverb of the loop is close to being erased.
- 2 bars of the loop pitched down.
- 2 bars of the loop pitched up.
- 2 bars of the downpitched loop and the higher loop together while the high one is at double tempo and shifted by an 8th note (and running through some phaser/echo combo). Slight DnB effect maybe.
- 4 bars of the original loop with a few beats altered here and there, to give it a bit of variation (actually, it's too much variation for 4 bars, but that's just for demoing purposes).
- 2 bars with a conga loop added, which, in the next 2 bars is pitched up. My instant Bongo-izer. Just to show this effect on a percussive loop.
- 2 bars of the loop, now the kick and snare are replaced with other samples.
- 2 bars of conga added to that and another 4 with loop, conga and the DnB-ish thing from before. Just to put it all together.
- 8 bars of some tempo change ramps drawn in to demonstrate that these work over a broad tempo range (I'd say at least from 60-120 BPM).
- Fade out on a now shuffled version (back at 86BPM). Working as well (admittedly not as well on the conga, but hey...).

Those options make the few loops I use suit almost any style and tempo.
I should add that I usually record any cymbals by myself (well, sampled ones that is) because those just don't work well with ReCycle. So the basic loops I'm using are usually made of rather dry sounds (kick, snare, hats).

Obviously, I could've used tons of effects on those loops as well, but usually I just don't like this - and it's too obvious to demonstrate that at all.

[nool]

slice n dice em

often i highpass filter or bandpass filter em at different spots to fill out my drum eq spectrum in addition to my programmed one shot rhythmns

and for fills too

[soulata]

Thanks everybody for giving me ideas

@ Sascha Franck

wow, that was educational. Could you go more in detail how you do it.

Recycle, import in EXS,... how do you substitute samples? Which tools do you prefer/use?

That's the thing I was looking for.



I just realized I'm quite new with this loop thing. That's the case when you work too much with drummers.

k

btw: I was asking for drum/percussion loops tips only, melodies I can do myself.

[Sascha Franck]

wow, that was educational. Could you go more in detail how you do it.

Of course...

Recycle, import in EXS,... how do you substitute samples? Which tools do you prefer/use?

OK, let's start with the "source material".
As allready said, I think the best stuff to get recycled are rather dry drumloops without much cymbal action going on. In case there's cymbals you'd have to stretch each slice in order to avoid gabs or overlappings between slices (depending on whether you speed things up or slow them down).
To avoid all this hassle, I just stick with a bunch of dry loops - as said, kicks, snares and hats usually are sufficient. I don't like tom rolls too much anyways and I can program the occasional cymbal myself (ok, it does get a bit critical for jazzy stuff).
Percussion grooves (especially congas and bongos) usually work fine too, as there's not much overlapping stuff.

Then, let's talk about the slicing tools. There's various, all offering different advances (and drawbacks). I own and therefor know the following (there's more but well...).

Propellerheads Recycle: Slicing IMO is very comfortable because you can zoom in nicely. Also, REX files are supported by a whole bunch of programs.
It further exports individual slices as wavefiles with corresponding MIDI files (more on that later).
Further, Logic allows for previewing of REX files in songtempo, which is a godsend.
On the downside, it's a standalone program, so you can't quickly check things in context.

Native Instruments Intakt: Working as a VSTi. Defenitely an advance if you quickly want to try out some loops. Automatic slicing is very good. Allows for "one shot" triggering of a complete loop (which usually is mapped to C1), which opens up for creative possibilities.
Unfortunately, Intakt doesn't export individual slices, so further tweaking (or replacing) of samples in a drum sampler is out of question.
Btw, Kontakt is doing the slicing job as well, but again, individual sample export is impossible (it sees the loop as a complete thing with zone infos).
On the upside, Intakt has very nice filters and MIDI learn options, so if you're more into sound mangling it might be a good choice. It also exports MIDI files - so you can later on rearrange the loop to your likings.
For me the lack of slice export is a strong downside though.

Bitshift Audio Phatmatik Pro: Pretty similar to Intakt, but MIDI file export is way better, plus, it allows to export individual slices.
In case your host allows for this, you can just drag the MIDI file into it and then drag the slices straight onto the drumsampler of your choice. Cool.
Unfortunately, it's rather fiddly, the knobs are small and the file browser is even worse than NIs.
Can't comment on the latest version because I never got any update notification (won it in a contest, maybe that's why...).
Slicing isn't as comfortable as in the others, onboard filters aren't all that great either, but as it allows for slice export it might very well be a good choice.

In addition, there might be ConcreteFX's Dicer and some others.

And there seem to be some new things coming up which might do the job all in one and with better compatibility (namely GURU and Drum9).
So things are only getting better.

Resume so far: To work the way I described you need something to slice your loops up - and there's pretty much some tools to do the job.
If I were you and had none of those allready I would perhaps wait a bit... might be worth it!

Anyways, on to further tweakings and the tools needed:
Almost any sampler will do fine, but using a dedicated drum sampler will defenitely be more comfortable.
In my previous example I have only been using the EXS for the following reasons:
- I allready have a bunch of loops converted to EXS format.
- Once converted, it extracts MIDI files on its own directly onto the track in Logic.
- Logic allows for previewing REX files in song tempo while keeping the EXS interface opened and active.
- It has a great sounding global filter.

On the downside, in case you want to replace samples, you need to save each and every patch again and again. Other samplers just save their settings along with the song.

OK, that was the reason why I used Battery to replace samples. No need to save an extra patch and it offers "in kit preview", so i can just have the sequencer running and listen to the replacements in song context.
I exported the individual slices from ReCycle, then dragged them onto Battery (they are numbered 001-00X and therefor line up fine) and dragged the recycle-exported MIDI file onto the Battery track.

I could've used DR-008 as well (I usually prefer it for all drum stuff), but unfortunately it doesn't allow for tweaking of multiple samples at once - and as I wanted to lower the decay of all samples (to reduce the revcrb amount of the original loop) I was using Battery.

Finally, you may know that the exported MIDI file is just triggering notes from C1 upwards chromatically (while keeping the timing of the original loop), so you need to line up your samples from C1 onwards as well. Both Battery and DR-008 support that via drag and drop - so you just grab the multiple-selected samples from explorer and drag them onto Battery/DR. Onto C1 that is.

Now, the loop exported (both slices and MIDI files) contain more than one note pitch triggering, say, a kick. For better convenience, I sort those out and drag them all onto one note pitch - so I only need to replace one sample cell in my drum sampler of choice.

OK, so much for now, does that make sense to you?
In case you don't understand something fundamentally (such as how those slicing tools work), I could eventually post some screenshots.

I just realized I'm quite new with this loop thing. That's the case when you work too much with drummers.

In case you can record your drummer more or less properly, just do your own loops and slice them up later!

[spaceman]

I grill them with onion, liver, garlic and a lot of olive oil and serve with a nice Chianti-th-th-th-th-th-t-ttt

[Crackbaby]

Sascha, you must be the most helpfull individual i have ever met

[soulata]

And there seem to be some new things coming up which might do the job all in one and with better compatibility (namely GURU and Drum9). So things are only getting better.

yep, saw the thread and I'm really looking forward to it.

If I were you and had none of those allready I would perhaps wait a bit... might be worth it!

I've dr008, I think I'll either wait or purchase Recycle + Phatmatik (does it support rex2?). I'm really not into Intakt.

I could've used DR-008 as well (I usually prefer it for all drum stuff), but unfortunately it doesn't allow for tweaking of multiple samples at once - and as I wanted to lower the decay of all samples (to reduce the revcrb amount of the original loop) I was using Battery.

bummer.

OK, so much for now, does that make sense to you? In case you don't understand something fundamentally (such as how those slicing tools work), I could eventually post some screenshots.

No, it's cool. No need to post screenshots.

In case you can record your drummer more or less properly, just do your own loops and slice them up later!

I tried to do it but sound was definetly not as nearly as good as on some loop CDs that I've heard. Well, I didn't try it with the newest drummer but there was always either too much snare everywhere or a wimpy snare sound which was everywhere but it sucked.

Thanks for the info. (you forgot the Donate link )

Final question: I see using loops as saving time but it all seems a bit, erm, much work. Is it?

See you (I have to practice sax now).

k