Apple introduces M2 Ultra

[Jac459]

MKUltra
Sounds ominous

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKUltra

I am not brainwashed, I only sleep with my MBP if an instance of bitwig is loaded...

[Uncle E]

One take away I get from that is the major point of PC's in orchestral work has been track counts for orchestral libraries, super RAM and CPU intensive set ups, that run Play, VSL, and wait for it.... mostly Kontakt libraries. So yeah, a real world test for the most extensively used format for large orchestral projects, the most demanding projects people do in the audio world, well, that test is no good.

100% agree. I don’t see what’s not to like about it. NI should do it themselves, between Kontakt, Maschine, and Monark, that should tell every user what we need to know, even if we don’t use those things.

[machinesworking]

One take away I get from that is the major point of PC's in orchestral work has been track counts for orchestral libraries, super RAM and CPU intensive set ups, that run Play, VSL, and wait for it.... mostly Kontakt libraries. So yeah, a real world test for the most extensively used format for large orchestral projects, the most demanding projects people do in the audio world, well, that test is no good.

100% agree. I don’t see what’s not to like about it. NI should do it themselves, between Kontakt, Maschine, and Monark, that should tell every user what we need to know, even if we don’t use those things.

Well to be fair, one weird thing about plug ins is how DAW specific their CPU sucking can be. For instance doing stress tests with Diva or Reaktor Blocks can have significantly different results depending on whether you're in Bitwig, Logic, DP, Live etc. etc. Bitwig and DP score really well on Diva tests, and DP does as well on Reaktor tests but Bitwig does not. So in all fairness for general CPU use I wouldn't doubt for a moment that the fastest computers out now that are even halfway viable as music computers would be on the Windows hardware side.

None of that gets in the way of the fact that for orchestral work the three most important plug ins are VSL, Opus and Kontakt, with Kontakt being the most important considering the massive amounts of libraries out there for it. It doesn't get in the way of the consideration that these new M2's should be really really good for large Kontakt based sample libraries, the most intensive thing most musicians will put a computer through.

But yeah "mobile chips"

[jamcat]

Even if the new Apple is faster, soon(2023 Intel/2024 AMD) there will be faster chips.

Yes, and soon (late 2023/2024) the next iteration of Apple Silicon will be even faster. That’s how technology has gone for the past 50 years.

Current AMD 7000 and Intel(Z790) users can upgrade just by changing the CPU!
Try that with Apple...

With Apple you just trade in your old computer and it costs the same as buying the latest Intel CPU.

A new Apple Silicon SoC is not going to be swappable with an old one. Different size, more connections, etc. Besides, soldered chips have far better heat transfer and chip thieves can’t steal them out of your computer!

The "legend" says AMD Ryzen 8000 will be +- 30% faster!! It is a lot!!!
I lets hope it is true...

+- 30% could also be 30% slower.

[dellboy]

It doesn't get in the way of the consideration that these new M2's should be really really good for large Kontakt based sample libraries, the most intensive thing most musicians will put a computer through.

I would have thought that PCs with cheaply available and upgradeable ram are far better suited for this purpose. I am sure I read somewhere recently that some musicians use hundreds of GBs of ram to produce film music etc.

[Super Piano Hater 64]

I would have thought that PCs with cheaply available and upgradeable ram are far better suited for this purpose. I am sure I read somewhere recently that some musicians use hundreds of GBs of ram to produce film music etc.

The higher-bandwidth memory bus (along with high-speed RAM and SSDs) is what you get from Apple in exchange for selling your soul and letting them solder their components. It's supposedly worth it for video editing, but the jury's still out on whether that extends to audio, especially given the outrageous dollar markup.

[machinesworking]

I would have thought that PCs with cheaply available and upgradeable ram are far better suited for this purpose. I am sure I read somewhere recently that some musicians use hundreds of GBs of ram to produce film music etc.

The higher-bandwidth memory bus (along with high-speed RAM and SSDs) is what you get from Apple in exchange for selling your soul and letting them solder their components. It's supposedly worth it for video editing, but the jury's still out on whether that extends to audio, especially given the outrageous dollar markup.

The whole package experience, ie not using VEP and doing it all in one machine. I’m sure there’s comparable pcs for this but it’s all there in a tiny Mac Studio. It all boils down to what you want. My upgrade will be different when I do it, because I prefer laptops these days as primary machines, so I probably will opt for a Windows VEP box with a macbook m2 in the future if for some reason I get crazy with Opus and Kontakt, but orchestral people I know jumped on the Studios right away for the all in one desktop thing.

[keyman_sam]

Jim, do you anticipate the high end composer clients replacing their racks of PCs with fewer racks of Minis or studios? Because for the use case you mentioned for orchestral templates, I'd imagine they need multiple PCs (not just one monstrous PC) in a VEP setup. Why would they not replace their power hungry Intels with more macs?

[Jim Roseberry]

Jim, do you anticipate the high end composer clients replacing their racks of PCs with fewer racks of Minis or studios? Because for the use case you mentioned for orchestral templates, I'd imagine they need multiple PCs (not just one monstrous PC) in a VEP setup. Why would they not replace their power hungry Intels with more macs?

No.
Many of our professional composer clients had been running multiple machines via VE Pro.
Most are trying to simplify their rigs (condense as much as possible).
Logistics and productivity: It's a whole lot more immediate to manage projects on a single/fast machine.
If it takes say six Mac Minis, 12+ external drive enclosures (which won't yield 7,000-10,000MB/Sec that an internal PCIe 4/5 M.2 drive would), etc... that's not a simple/practical/optimal solution.
Have you ever tried working with several machines simultaneously (KVM switch, remote-in, etc)? If you simply can't get the performance you need in any single machine, then you deal with the PITA logistics. If you can get the job done with a single machine, it's going to be quicker/easier.

In any high-performance scenario (Auto Racing is a good example), it's common to want complete control over every part... and exactly how it's configured.
The more detailed the control, the more you can achieve the desired end-result.
The advantage of a custom machine is that it's exactly what the client needs (nothing more... nothing less).

Most of the LA based composers meet monthly (Danny Lux recently moved to Nashville).
They're virtually all running high-end custom machines.
Many are not happy with the current state of VE Pro.
Many are not crazy about Opus. Opus is a CPU hog compared to Kontakt, Sine, etc.
Orchestral Tools Ark series... and Spitfire's BBC Orchestra are currently popular.
Kontakt is (obviously) under heavy use.

[Jim Roseberry]

Picked up a M2 Pro.
Will benchmark that as time permits.

If you've run Cinebench many times, you can watch the speed at which the "blocks" are being rendered... and have a rough idea how a CPU compares.
ie: It's immediately obvious that my M1 Pro is significantly slower than the 13600k (being tested prior to shipping).
13600k scores about double the M1 Pro (multi-core).
13600k runs super quiet under 100% video rendering load (with top-tier air cooling).
7950x and 13900k run a lot hotter under those conditions... but both are scoring upwards of double the 13600k.

Will also do some audio stress-tests.
Kontakt is obvious.
Anything in particular you'd like to have included (Diva, etc)?

[jamcat]

Anything in particular you'd like to have included (Diva, etc)?

Audio Modeling SWAM instruments.
IK Multimedia Tape Machines.

[Jac459]

Picked up a M2 Pro.
Will benchmark that as time permits.

If you've run Cinebench many times, you can watch the speed at which the "blocks" are being rendered... and have a rough idea how a CPU compares.
ie: It's immediately obvious that my M1 Pro is significantly slower than the 13600k (being tested prior to shipping).
13600k scores about double the M1 Pro (multi-core).
13600k runs super quiet under 100% video rendering load (with top-tier air cooling).
7950x and 13900k run a lot hotter under those conditions... but both are scoring upwards of double the 13600k.

Will also do some audio stress-tests.
Kontakt is obvious.
Anything in particular you'd like to have included (Diva, etc)?

Hello, it would be nice to have a test on bitwig please, as well as phase plant.

[sQeetz]

People claiming that with Apple you have to change the whole system from time to time... what about Intel AND AMD constantly changing sockets, so you can't easily just pop in the newest CPU into your motherboard? You need to change almost the whole thing again for a CPU upgrade

[legendCNCD]

https://music-prod.com/logic-pro-benchmarks/ on other forum some user got 375 with i7-13700K. I'd say its on the line with what Jim has been saying here. i9 and 7950X are the king.

[Jac459]

Not for reopening the discussion. Overall the 13900k certainly remain the king of raw power.
But the performance of the ultra m2 with just a tiny portion of the TDP compare to the 13900k is astonishing...

https://tech4gamers.com/apple-m2-ultra- ... is-faster/

To me it really mean the end of CISC architecture against RISC (read x86 vs ARM).
20 years ago, RISC was even not in the race. 10 years ago, some of the most powerful supercomputer of the world were RISC based, nowhere to be seen in consumer desktop/laptop (Microsoft Surface RT is the onlyy example I remember). Now one brand, not even specialised in desktop CPU, manage to challenge very closely the 2 reigning king with an ARM based architecture...
To me the question is not if but when...

Funny enough, my CPU architecture teacher, 25 years ago, predicted the death of CISC... He said in 30 years ... I think his prediction would have been quite accurate...