Plugin Limit on Mac vs PC

[Sascha Franck]

Totalmix is great. My Tosh laptop runs with incredible stabiltiy with RME cardbus/Win2K and Logic PC - I have never thrown such heavy work at it as your recording gig though.

Oh well - I didn't even use totalmix at all!
I did EVERYTHING completely inside Logic, recording, mixing and monitoring!
Even had some kick on the monitor the bass player and drummer were sharing - nobody complained about latency (and these are really experienced players!) - guess after all 64 samples is just fine, especially in a live context.

[jones-y]

Huh? Most of the downsides of Mac ownership are objectively quantifiable.

Possibly, but still I could argue that at least some of those disadvantages you list are indeed advantages, or at the least, not disadvantages.

--- Smaller choice of software
--- smaller range of compatible peripherals

If the software/hardware I need and use is available, I could argue that a smaller selection can be a benefit, or at least a non-disadvantage. I'm quite sure I can accomplish everything I need to on my Mac.

My point is that its still not quite objective; more does not necessarily mean better.

--- one source of hardware and OS

[/quote]

then I can argue that we can expect a high level of integration. Not necessarily better or worse than a well built PC, but it gives confidence in the product to the average, not-completely-informed consumer.

--- resulting price gouging due to both of the above
--- one source of hardware and OS - they can charge whatever they want and do

I wouldn't argue price gouging on the software, just less availability of lower cost and free apps. The commercial apps for the Mac platform many times have equivalent commercial apps with comparable prices on the PC platform. Its just that there are less options in the less expensive segment; the one man development projects, and so on.

As for peripherals, can you give examples of categories where Mac compatible ones are significantly more expensive than their PC compatible counterparts? Not challenging you, but I'm really not aware of any.

And furthermore, I'd argue that higher prices are a direct result of a smaller market. Manuf and Devs still have a bottom line to meet, and they need higher per-unit margins if they anticipate moving less units. Furthermore, competition does not cease to exist in the third party Mac accessory market. Its just that there are less competitors, however the capitalistic model still rules, which works against price fixing/gouging.

Its an interesting phenomenon, however, how a higher price can lead to a perception of a higher value. And I'd be a fool to argue that Apple has found the holy grail of hardware and software manufacturing, justifying their high prices.

--- cultlike nature of Mac following means that the above is unlikely to change

That's definitely not an objective, quantifiable argument of disadvantage, but I like how you slipped it in there

We are cult-like but I'd argue that the only thing that would make the Apple market change are big fat red numbers in the bottom line. And that a cult following does not maintain the status quo.

And then there's the simple fact that BG is the Prince of Darkness ... who will sooner or later demand the first born of every Windows user ...

(cue fiendish laughter)

Now who can argue with that?









And anyway, I thought you weren't interested in the debate at hand?

[cesjr]

Apple software creates the value for the mac

Look at Garageband. For $999 you can get a great iBook and it comes with a fantastic app with a massive and high quality sound and loop library for free. The closest pre-packaged application on the PC side with the same level of quality and ease of use would probably be Reason, which costs 1/3 of what that iBook costs.

Look at Logic, $999 with a huge number of instruments and effects, including a real time convolution reverb, amp sim, physical modelling a la Tassman, Ultrabeat, and more.

If you go beyond audio, look at Motion. $299 is unbelievable for that. The whole Final Cut Pro, DVD pro, Motion, Soundtrack package is only $1299. Try matching that price, at that level of quality, on the PC side. Good luck

[ericj23]

garageband = reason - ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

gargeaband = acid music studio ($60) and some freeware plugs

logic is very good and some of the plugs are excellent - but im afriad sculpture is nowhere near tassman (although its a very nice i'm sure) and many of the other plugs are poor to awful (i.e. compressor, reverb (other than space designer) so frankly sx on a pc with a powercore and ni komplete is pretty much the same cost as logic on the mac - you take your choices but i know where i'd rather be

and while i know nothing about video software I seriously doubt there is that mcuh difference

what i want to know is what happens to that plug-in count when all new PCs will be dual core (ie proper dual processors) within the year - those g5s will be seriously underpowered

[VicDiesel]

and while i know nothing about video software I seriously doubt there is that mcuh difference

Talk to all these people who dumped Avid.

V.

[jones-y]

garageband = reason - ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

gargeaband = acid music studio ($60) and some freeware plugs

Agreed!

logic is very good and some of the plugs are excellent - but im afriad sculpture is nowhere near tassman (although its a very nice i'm sure) and many of the other plugs are poor to awful (i.e. compressor, reverb (other than space designer) so frankly sx on a pc with a powercore and ni komplete is pretty much the same cost as logic on the mac - you take your choices but i know where i'd rather be

As do I, but fair comparison nonetheless.

and while i know nothing about video software I seriously doubt there is that mcuh difference

The Apple video suite is tops in the industry now. Even the mighty Adobe and Avid couldn't compete. But on the flip side, I think the loss of Premiere as a Mac app was a tragic loss, as would be losing, say, Cubase SX due to Logic's dominance.

BTW a lot of Final Cut users decried Apple's acquisition of that program a few years back. But have a look now... I sincerely hope Apple does the same with Logic.

what i want to know is what happens to that plug-in count when all new PCs will be dual core (ie proper dual processors) within the year - those g5s will be seriously underpowered

The current ones, yes. But how can you compare today's Mac with tomorrow's PC? Bit unfair dontyathink? G5s are currently underpowered anyway, when compared to the latest Opterons... At least now, current Mac CPUs are in the same ballpark as their PC counterparts, which was not the case as little as 2-3 years ago. But also remember that there was a time (the mid-late 90's) when Apple computers ran laps around PCs. What goes around may well come back around.

And what you must realize is that while Intel and AMD are marching ahead with new technologies, so is IBM. And they're currently working on desktop dual core processors as well (IIRC).

[cesjr]

garageband = reason - ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

gargeaband = acid music studio ($60) and some freeware plugs

logic is very good and some of the plugs are excellent - but im afriad sculpture is nowhere near tassman (although its a very nice i'm sure) and many of the other plugs are poor to awful (i.e. compressor, reverb (other than space designer) so frankly sx on a pc with a powercore and ni komplete is pretty much the same cost as logic on the mac - you take your choices but i know where i'd rather be

and while i know nothing about video software I seriously doubt there is that mcuh difference

what i want to know is what happens to that plug-in count when all new PCs will be dual core (ie proper dual processors) within the year - those g5s will be seriously underpowered

Hey, Garageband costs zero. Reason costs $300. Reason can't record voice. Reason can't take a guitar signal and apply an amp sim. Reason also can't take plugs. Reason is harder to use than Garageband. Any five year old can use Garageband. Reason is, well was, a leap forward on ease of use. But it ain't nothin in the ease of use area like Garageband. Anyways, try naming a free or below $10 PC app that compares to Garageband. You can't. Oh sure, if your time is not worth anything, you can scour around for free plugs and assemble a collection of ones that maybe are as good. The truth is the quality of the free plugs is variable at best, plus you have to spend a ton of time figuring out where they are and which ones to download. So can you load up a free or cheap PC program that is equivalent to Garageband? No. So you lose until you name a program.

As to Logic versus NI Komplete plus SX, you better add a convolution reverb, Tassman, and amp sim on top of NI komplete. Guess what, you've gone way over what Logic Pro costs. Do the math, you lose again.

[jones-y]

Hey, Garageband costs zero.

No it doesn't.

Garageband is included with a new computer purchase. Meaning its price is bundled within the total cost of the computer. If I wanted Garage Band, guess what. I have to shell out $50. With Tracktion now being free, Garage Band has now been at least equalled.

As to Logic versus NI Komplete plus SX, you better add a convolution reverb and amp sim on top of NI komplete. Guess what, you've gone way over what Logic Pro costs. Do the math, you lose again.

I think the comparison included buying a similarly powerful Mac/PC. If that's the case, he'd be hard pressed to lose.

[BONES]

If you go beyond audio, look at Motion. $299 is unbelievable for that. The whole Final Cut Pro, DVD pro, Motion, Soundtrack package is only $1299. Try matching that price, at that level of quality, on the PC side. Good luck

Thank-you god! You must be f**king kidding! What f**king good is Motion on its own? No f**king good at all. Why? Because Apple have to protect Shake sales. Does it have a proper keyer? NO! Does it have any useful rotoscope tools? NO! Does it have a decent GUI? No fucken way! I'll take combustion at three times the price any day of the week. Ok, FCP is really good and I'm sure it has driven Mac sales very successfully but not everybody needs a professional off-line editing solution. Every other piece of software you have mentioned is consumer-grade krap or, at the very best, pro-sumer and none too seriously pro-sumer at that.

[egbert]

Oh sure, if your time is not worth anything, you can scour around for free plugs and assemble a collection of ones that maybe are as good. The truth is the quality of the free plugs is variable at best, plus you have to spend a ton of time figuring out where they are and which ones to download.

For someone who thinks that reading this site so that you will know about Kjaerhus Classic Series and the Voxengo and RGC freebies etc is an indication that your time is worth nothing you seem to have found enough time to post on it. What is your time worth?

What about the all the time and effort it takes to figure out where there's a Mac store and then when you go down there there are all these different computers - geez who knows which one to buy?

And then even if you buy one you have to figure out how to unpack the darn thing and connect everything and where do you plug it in if you can't find a spare outlet?

It's all so complicated! Why not just get a mouth organ and be done with it?

Regards,
Eg

[cesjr]

Hey, Garageband costs zero.

No it doesn't.

Garageband is included with a new computer purchase. Meaning its price is bundled within the total cost of the computer. If I wanted Garage Band, guess what. I have to shell out $50. With Tracktion now being free, Garage Band has now been at least equalled.

As to Logic versus NI Komplete plus SX, you better add a convolution reverb and amp sim on top of NI komplete. Guess what, you've gone way over what Logic Pro costs. Do the math, you lose again.

I think the comparison included buying a similarly powerful Mac/PC. If that's the case, he'd be hard pressed to lose.

Right Garageband is free if you buy a new mac, which, guess what, if you're a mac user, you're probably going to buy a new mac once in a while, huh? Plus, you were paying for upgrades to iLife anyways (new iMovie, new iDVD, etc) which were all of like $50 and now you get Garageband too. It's basically free.

Traktion doesn't have any sounds. In case you forgot, Garageband includes mini versions (really easy to use, but equivalently great sounding) of EVB3, EVP88, ES2 and EXS24 with tons of sample instruments, all with great presets. Plus tons of loop content which Traktion doesn't have. Traktion doesn't have an amp sim either. Plus Traktion is free for a limited time, and when version 2 comes out, that won't be free I'm sure. Garageband 2 and 3 and 4 will still be free when you buy a mac, or get your iLife upgrade.

As for logic versus SX plus a lot of other expensive software, NO, we are not including the cost of a mac. First of all, I never said that macs were cheaper once you take the software into account. What I'm saying is that to fully consider whether a mac is a good value or not relative to a PC, you need to take the CHEAP and excellent apple software into account, which usually is better and/or cheaper than the more expensive PC software. So my point is, the higher mac hardware cost is offset to some degree (sometimes fully) by the extra value you gain on the mac software.

[jones-y]

Why not just get a mouth organ and be done with it?

I think he'd prefer a kazoo...

Or maybe he can save that 10 cents, and use underarm farts...

[cesjr]

If you go beyond audio, look at Motion. $299 is unbelievable for that. The whole Final Cut Pro, DVD pro, Motion, Soundtrack package is only $1299. Try matching that price, at that level of quality, on the PC side. Good luck

Thank-you god! You must be f**king kidding! What f**king good is Motion on its own? No f**king good at all. Why? Because Apple have to protect Shake sales. Does it have a proper keyer? NO! Does it have any useful rotoscope tools? NO! Does it have a decent GUI? No fucken way! I'll take combustion at three times the price any day of the week. Ok, FCP is really good and I'm sure it has driven Mac sales very successfully but not everybody needs a professional off-line editing solution. Every other piece of software you have mentioned is consumer-grade krap or, at the very best, pro-sumer and none too seriously pro-sumer at that.

Umm, I know this is hard for you, but what if you don't need those features and you'd prefer something that costs $299 and is a lot easier to use?

[cesjr]

Oh sure, if your time is not worth anything, you can scour around for free plugs and assemble a collection of ones that maybe are as good. The truth is the quality of the free plugs is variable at best, plus you have to spend a ton of time figuring out where they are and which ones to download.

For someone who thinks that reading this site so that you will know about Kjaerhus Classic Series and the Voxengo and RGC freebies etc is an indication that your time is worth nothing you seem to have found enough time to post on it. What is your time worth?

What about the all the time and effort it takes to figure out where there's a Mac store and then when you go down there there are all these different computers - geez who knows which one to buy?

And then even if you buy one you have to figure out how to unpack the darn thing and connect everything and where do you plug it in if you can't find a spare outlet?

It's all so complicated! Why not just get a mouth organ and be done with it?

Regards,
Eg

You can make fun of what I'm saying all you want, but there's little substance in your comments.

Let's try this again. How much time would it take for the average, non-computer geek musician to track down equivalents to all the sound and loops in Garageband? How much sifting and downloading and trying out of sounds would you have to do? Anyways, in the end, you'd still be left with something WAY, WAY, harder to use than Gargeband.

The fact is Garageband is really cool, it astounds virtually everyone I show it to, that wants or is attracted to making music, but is not a computer geek. And there's nothing remotely comparable to it on the PC that is cheap or free. Sorry, but that's the hard truth for PC users. Just like PC hardware is cheaper and more upgradeable than mac hardware. That's the hard truth too, for mac users.

[jones-y]

Right Garageband is free if you buy a new mac, which, guess what, if you're a mac user, you're probably going to buy a new mac once in a while, huh? Plus, you were paying for upgrades to iLife anyways (new iMovie, new iDVD, etc) which were all of like $50 and now you get Garageband too. It's basically free.

Either its free or its not. And its not, no matter how you add it up. And iDVD, iMovie, and other apps I don't use, do not sweeten the $50 deal.

Traktion doesn't have any sounds. In case you forgot, Garageband includes mini versions (really easy to use, but equivalently great sounding) of EVB3, EVP88, ES2 and EXS24 with tons of sample instruments, all with great presets. Plus tons of loop content which Traktion doesn't have. Traktion doesn't have an amp sim either. Plus Traktion is free for a limited time, and when version 2 comes out, that won't be free I'm sure. Garageband 2 and 3 and 4 will still be free when you buy a mac, or get your iLife upgrade.

Free when you buy an upgrade, how novel an idea!

And I didn't forget about the included Garage band instruments (which are excellent) and loops (which abso-f**king-lutely suck). I have them. I own Logic 7 Pro.

And furthermore, the availability of excellent free synths and samples more than alleviate the lack of included sounds in Tracktion or any other app.

Lemme tell you a little story. In late 2002, my MOTIF 7 was stolen. Until then, it was my primary sound source, and the EXS24, and the ES1 filled in the blanks. As I couldn't afford a replacement, I scoured the internet for free samples, and ended up with about 9000 EXS24 instruments. (I also ran across Crystal at that time) They served me well until I replaced my MOTIF (with the Rack), and they continue to be useful to me to this day. So don't tell me that the designation of a synth or sample set as 'free' invalidates its worth or sound quality. Ever heard the NS Free Kit? NS J-Bass? Ever been to www.hollowsun.com ?

As for logic versus SX plus a lot of other expensive software, NO, we are not including the cost of a mac.

I didn't say 'we' were including the cost of the computer. I said 'he' was. Go back and read his message again. His argument, he sets the terms.

First of all, I never said that macs were cheaper once you take the software into account. What I'm saying is that to fully consider whether a mac is a good value or not relative to a PC, you need to take the CHEAP and excellent apple software into account, which usually is better and/or cheaper than the more expensive PC software. So my point is, the higher mac hardware cost is offset to some degree (sometimes fully) by the extra value you gain on the mac software.

But what value do I gain if I don't need or use said free/cheap software?