Plugin Limit on Mac vs PC

[Sascha Franck]

You will know that I'm the last person to defend Macs - but, getting you started with some music program, in this case Garageband, is indeed WAY easier that anything you could do in a comparable amount of time on PCs.

To get something halfway comparable (and I'm sure some things still wouldn't sound as good) you would need, say, Tracktion at first. Where to get it? How to register it?
Then you'd need some instruments. OK, there's tons of them for free - but which ones are the goodies? With Garageband most of them sound more or less fine.
Same goes for FX.
Then you'd need some loops as well - just try to explain to a beginner how to a) download, b) trim and c) use those loops in various tempi. Apple loops just do all of that automatically, as they're there, don't need to be converted, trimmed, sliced or whatever and loading them is no deal either.

Yeah, you could perhaps get away with buying Fruity or Orion - but you would still have to do that (and decide yourself).

The next thing is onboard sound. Come on, tell me ONE non-audio-extra-build PC working with low latency straight out of the box! There is none!
Almost all Macs do that instantly.
All you need is any cheap USB MIDI keyboard, connect it and you're ready to go.

Yes, there's KX, ASIO4All and whatever... but you will defenitely have to a) know about those, b) download them, c) install them and d) adjust them.
Just not necessary on Macs.

Then, some words about Logic vs. SX (or whatever equivalent).
Assuming you got a Mac, assuming you don't allready have all your plugins, Logic is by far the best priced package out there IMO.
Someone said the plugins weren't any good and that you could replace them easily - what a pile of uninformed bullshit.
Where have you seen an impulse reverb as good as Space Designer, useable in realtime? Voxengo or Waves, ok. But you pay for them.
Which freeware EQ is as good as the latest Logic channel EQ? Where's delay eqivalents? Where's your free Autotune? Where's your free Autofiler, Spectral Gate, whatever?
Then, what about the instruments? Yes, Komplete *could* be somewhat comparable, but where's EVD6, where's a proper Leslie for the B4, where's EVP, where's Sculpture?
I could most likely go on with quite a few more, but that's a moot thing.

I would say that if you wanted the same plugin functionality and quality with SX plus some third party plugins you'd need at LEAST Komplete 2 and some FX suite costing another 500 bucks minimum (and that's a rather friendly set minimum).
Add to this that Logic's plugins all share the same "feeling". Once you moved one knob you just know how all of them feel like.

I will gladly support anybody telling me that Macs are quite a bit overpriced for what they deliver, especially in terms of digital audio, but getting you started easily IS one of the pros and in case you need a sequencer along with a great plugin package, Logic IS a fantastic deal too.

VERY rough estimation:
DP G5 2x2 with Logic Pro: Around 4000 bucks.
Cheapest PC offering similar performance might be around 1500 bucks. Plus SX, plus Komplete 2, plus a comprehensive package of FX plugins - your at least at 3000 total now.

Yeah, the picture is looking quite different for people like me. I allready own Logic and I also own a fast PC. Further, there's quite some things I use daily that are PC only. Not much need in buying a Mac - unless I do indeed love Logic as much as I seem to (which has to be proven again).

It's also looking quite different in case you're a beginner not expecting too much, along with the will to invest some time. A really powerful PC can be had for 600 Euros (I just configured a whole bunch for the music uni's MediaLab, they're performing very well). If you are a cheap dude you may rather invest some time in internet searches as well. So you may find Tracktion and all those nice PC-only freebies. You may also be clever enough to buy some Audiophile.
That would leave you with, say, 1000 quid (including some paid plugins) and some really great performance. No Mac on this earth will be able to beat that in terms of price/performance.
But it's quite some more work to get you going.

[jones-y]

Well, I was gonna reply, but you just said too damn much...

As for whether or not a person is willing or able or knowledgeable enough to put in the time, that's a personal thing. I personally never wanted my hand held, even when my mentor got an SP1200 and loaned me his SP12 in 1995, even when I had a JV1000/ASR-X/digital 8-track in 1998/99, even when I got my Mac and Logic, and a MOTIF in 2001.

But I could argue that an app that has an extremely short learning curve may become limiting more quickly than an app that requires some spin-up time.

As for the value:cost ratio of Logic 7, with all its included amenities, I agree, since I use a large portion of them. But a very valid counter-argument is: what extra value is there for me if I don't need or use the extra stuff?

[cesjr]

Right Garageband is free if you buy a new mac, which, guess what, if you're a mac user, you're probably going to buy a new mac once in a while, huh? Plus, you were paying for upgrades to iLife anyways (new iMovie, new iDVD, etc) which were all of like $50 and now you get Garageband too. It's basically free.

Either its free or its not. And its not, no matter how you add it up. And iDVD, iMovie, and other apps I don't use, do not sweeten the $50 deal.

Traktion doesn't have any sounds. In case you forgot, Garageband includes mini versions (really easy to use, but equivalently great sounding) of EVB3, EVP88, ES2 and EXS24 with tons of sample instruments, all with great presets. Plus tons of loop content which Traktion doesn't have. Traktion doesn't have an amp sim either. Plus Traktion is free for a limited time, and when version 2 comes out, that won't be free I'm sure. Garageband 2 and 3 and 4 will still be free when you buy a mac, or get your iLife upgrade.

Free when you buy an upgrade, how novel an idea!

And I didn't forget about the included Garage band instruments (which are excellent) and loops (which abso-f**king-lutely suck). I have them. I own Logic 7 Pro.

And furthermore, the availability of excellent free synths and samples more than alleviate the lack of included sounds in Tracktion or any other app.

Lemme tell you a little story. In late 2002, my MOTIF 7 was stolen. Until then, it was my primary sound source, and the EXS24, and the ES1 filled in the blanks. As I couldn't afford a replacement, I scoured the internet for free samples, and ended up with about 9000 EXS24 instruments. (I also ran across Crystal at that time) They served me well until I replaced my MOTIF (with the Rack), and they continue to be useful to me to this day. So don't tell me that the designation of a synth or sample set as 'free' invalidates its worth or sound quality. Ever heard the NS Free Kit? NS J-Bass? Ever been to www.hollowsun.com ?

As for logic versus SX plus a lot of other expensive software, NO, we are not including the cost of a mac.

I didn't say 'we' were including the cost of the computer. I said 'he' was. Go back and read his message again. His argument, he sets the terms.

First of all, I never said that macs were cheaper once you take the software into account. What I'm saying is that to fully consider whether a mac is a good value or not relative to a PC, you need to take the CHEAP and excellent apple software into account, which usually is better and/or cheaper than the more expensive PC software. So my point is, the higher mac hardware cost is offset to some degree (sometimes fully) by the extra value you gain on the mac software.

But what value do I gain if I don't need or use said free/cheap software?

Yea, but what about all the people that do use it? Is your situation the only valid one, so when we discuss the relative value of a mac and pc for music authoring, we should just ignore Garageband (free) and Logic Pro (999) with all those instruments and plugs and loops?

There's also an advantage to having a set of quality instruments and effects included, that every other user also has. Namely, people can make presets and midi loops (where you can change the instrument). When you have Traktion and a bunch of free plugs, you can't do that because there's no way to be sure everyone has the same set of plugs.

[stefancrs]

Sascha, you were right about almost everything. but...

The next thing is onboard sound. Come on, tell me ONE non-audio-extra-build PC working with low latency straight out of the box! There is none!
Almost all Macs do that instantly.
All you need is any cheap USB MIDI keyboard, connect it and you're ready to go.

Yes, there's KX, ASIO4All and whatever... but you will defenitely have to a) know about those, b) download them, c) install them and d) adjust them.
Just not necessary on Macs.

My 2 latest purchases were no "music-pc's", yet they have native asio driven soundcards on their mobo. The nforce chipset is quite popular these days (FYI, the two latest pc's I've bought was my own shuttle xpc and then a shuttle xpc for my girlfriend). A lot of people buy amd+nforce, without knowing they get asio for free (I didn't know it, I noticed it after buying a new soundcard: "wtf? what's this nvidia asio thingy in my asio driver list??").

[digitaldoom]

You will know that I'm the last person to defend Macs - but, getting you started with some music program, in this case Garageband, is indeed WAY easier that anything you could do in a comparable amount of time on PCs.

To get something halfway comparable (and I'm sure some things still wouldn't sound as good) you would need, say, Tracktion at first. Where to get it? How to register it?
Then you'd need some instruments. OK, there's tons of them for free - but which ones are the goodies? With Garageband most of them sound more or less fine.
Same goes for FX.
Then you'd need some loops as well - just try to explain to a beginner how to a) download, b) trim and c) use those loops in various tempi. Apple loops just do all of that automatically, as they're there, don't need to be converted, trimmed, sliced or whatever and loading them is no deal either.

Yeah, you could perhaps get away with buying Fruity or Orion - but you would still have to do that (and decide yourself).

The next thing is onboard sound. Come on, tell me ONE non-audio-extra-build PC working with low latency straight out of the box! There is none!
Almost all Macs do that instantly.
All you need is any cheap USB MIDI keyboard, connect it and you're ready to go.

Yes, there's KX, ASIO4All and whatever... but you will defenitely have to a) know about those, b) download them, c) install them and d) adjust them.
Just not necessary on Macs.

Then, some words about Logic vs. SX (or whatever equivalent).
Assuming you got a Mac, assuming you don't allready have all your plugins, Logic is by far the best priced package out there IMO.
Someone said the plugins weren't any good and that you could replace them easily - what a pile of uninformed bullshit.
Where have you seen an impulse reverb as good as Space Designer, useable in realtime? Voxengo or Waves, ok. But you pay for them.
Which freeware EQ is as good as the latest Logic channel EQ? Where's delay eqivalents? Where's your free Autotune? Where's your free Autofiler, Spectral Gate, whatever?
Then, what about the instruments? Yes, Komplete *could* be somewhat comparable, but where's EVD6, where's a proper Leslie for the B4, where's EVP, where's Sculpture?
I could most likely go on with quite a few more, but that's a moot thing.

I would say that if you wanted the same plugin functionality and quality with SX plus some third party plugins you'd need at LEAST Komplete 2 and some FX suite costing another 500 bucks minimum (and that's a rather friendly set minimum).
Add to this that Logic's plugins all share the same "feeling". Once you moved one knob you just know how all of them feel like.

I will gladly support anybody telling me that Macs are quite a bit overpriced for what they deliver, especially in terms of digital audio, but getting you started easily IS one of the pros and in case you need a sequencer along with a great plugin package, Logic IS a fantastic deal too.

VERY rough estimation:
DP G5 2x2 with Logic Pro: Around 4000 bucks.
Cheapest PC offering similar performance might be around 1500 bucks. Plus SX, plus Komplete 2, plus a comprehensive package of FX plugins - your at least at 3000 total now.

Yeah, the picture is looking quite different for people like me. I allready own Logic and I also own a fast PC. Further, there's quite some things I use daily that are PC only. Not much need in buying a Mac - unless I do indeed love Logic as much as I seem to (which has to be proven again).

It's also looking quite different in case you're a beginner not expecting too much, along with the will to invest some time. A really powerful PC can be had for 600 Euros (I just configured a whole bunch for the music uni's MediaLab, they're performing very well). If you are a cheap dude you may rather invest some time in internet searches as well. So you may find Tracktion and all those nice PC-only freebies. You may also be clever enough to buy some Audiophile.
That would leave you with, say, 1000 quid (including some paid plugins) and some really great performance. No Mac on this earth will be able to beat that in terms of price/performance.
But it's quite some more work to get you going.

Logic may be a good complete package, but the Mac itself is very expensive. To me, it 'might' be worth it if what I thought I read was true. That a Mac could process insane amounts of plugins with just a standard G5. But according to some of the comparisons posted, that may not be the case once you tweak the ___ out of XP.

So...

Maybe sticking with a PC isn't sooo bad. I'll just have to work on my tweaks.

[Sascha Franck]

But I could argue that an app that has an extremely short learning curve may become limiting more quickly than an app that requires some spin-up time.

Usually I would agree with this.
But then - even if this is getting a bit OT now - that's usually a design flaw. I think many programs could benefit from a somewhat "modular" approach. "Don't need external sync? Switch off (temporarily) anything that's got to do with it! You never score anything? Entirely deactivate it for now!" - that way or so.

As for the value:cost ratio of Logic 7, with all its included amenities, I agree, since I use a large portion of them. But a very valid counter-argument is: what extra value is there for me if I don't need or use the extra stuff?

Very true, of course. Maybe the old approach of selling the plugins separately (at least the instruments) would make more sense for a lot of people.
But it seems that Apple just likes selling complete packages. You just buy everything out of one hand.
Also, if it wasn't for the plugins, apart from a few, basically "ergonomically related" things Logic wouldn't look all that good, compared to the competition. Technically it's more or less a laugh in quite some areas.

My 2 latest purchases were no "music-pc's", yet they have native asio driven soundcards on their mobo. [...]

Oh, I didn't know that. Nice then. Still, it's not exactly a common thing, while with Macs it is.

Logic may be a good complete package, but the Mac itself is very expensive. To me, it 'might' be worth it if what I thought I read was true. That a Mac could process insane amounts of plugins with just a standard G5. But according to some of the comparisons posted, that may not be the case once you tweak the ___ out of XP.

Well, personally I just had enough of all that tweaking madness. I just do the usual things and stway away from any of those "serious" tweaks.
From my own experience in years of tweaking PCs (sometimes to the max, you know, 98lite with 95 shell,no network, no whatever, no nothing) there's almost allways a time when you may need one or the other disabled functionality. And sometimes it's just tough to get back there.

And that's something I like with Maca, there's not much need to tweak any secret things. Even with a stock G5 DP Logics performance regarding plugin cound is exceptional - merely because everything could be optimzed for OSX, which many x-platform things wouldn't allow for.
Oh yes, audio performance under Logic is piss poor, but that's got nothing to do with Apple but with Logic.

[meister eder]

You will know that I'm the last person to defend Macs - but, getting you started with some music program, in this case Garageband, is indeed WAY easier that anything you could do in a comparable amount of time on PCs.

My English might not be the best either, but this "that"_instead_of_"than" habit (even from native speakers) drives me cracy!



It had to be said - I was quiet about it for too long already...

[Sascha Franck]

My English might not be the best either, but this "that"_instead_of_"than" habit (even from native speakers) drives me cracy!

That was a plain typo. I never do this normally - because it's driving me crazy as well.
And I even keep seeing it coming from native speakers...

[Urs]

Logic may be a good complete package, but the Mac itself is very expensive. To me, it 'might' be worth it if what I thought I read was true. That a Mac could process insane amounts of plugins with just a standard G5. But according to some of the comparisons posted, that may not be the case once you tweak the ___ out of XP.

So...

Maybe sticking with a PC isn't sooo bad. I'll just have to work on my tweaks.

Well, who says you can't crunch numbers on an iMac G5, an eMac or an iBook? - it doesn't have to be a dual proc G5, and you'll still have a hard time until you hit the wall with recent models.

And as for comparisons. Well. Anyone should make a comparison for number of samples you could play back simultaneously with the EXS vs. any other sampler. Now, that will probably be kinda insane

Btw. some people do also tweak OS X. Especially the disc performance can be souped up, like turning off Journaling (a data recovery function), or using TechTool/DiscWarrior to optimize HDs. Also, OS X has built in software RAID. It should be possible to take 2 HDs and wire them up as being one, with twice the throughput.

And that's something I like with Macs, there's not much need to tweak any secret things.

Well, some people do have to install CHUD Developer Tools, open the "Hardware" system extension and disable "Nap mode". That's quite painful, admittedly.

Logic's performance gets much better when you turn off antialiased text (buried somewhere in Logic's preferences).

Cheers,

Urs

[Sascha Franck]

And as for comparisons. Well. Anyone should make a comparison for number of samples you could play back simultaneously with the EXS vs. any other sampler. Now, that will probably be kinda insane

I did these tests numerous times.
The EXS is very efficient indeed, but IIRC the difference between it and Kontakt was around less than 10%.
Last time I checked was with LogicPro6, btw.
And I heard Logic 7 wasn't as efficient.
I think the EXS doesn't take much advance of Logic's OSX optimizations (unlike, say, the ES2, which has been incredibly improved regarding performance).

For some people there even seem to be negative side effects, most likely going hand in hand with Logics poor audio performance. So they had to set the virtual memory disk speed settings to "slow" to get most of their samples loaded into the RAM - just because the disk started to choke rather early when streaming too much.

I'd be pretty much interested in some EXS performance test without streaming (that'd require all the comparable machines had to have the same large libraries installed).

I could post a small testsong, using a 1 sample patch. That way one could actually measure performance when it comes to pitching too.

[ericj23]

And as for comparisons. Well. Anyone should make a comparison for number of samples you could play back simultaneously with the EXS vs. any other sampler. Now, that will probably be kinda insane

so your saying exs is more efficient than gigasampler (that now runs through rewire into your host)

are you sure - read a report of someone running 700 simultaneous voices

[BONES]

A lot of people buy amd+nforce, without knowing they get asio for free (I didn't know it, I noticed it after buying a new soundcard: "wtf? what's this nvidia asio thingy in my asio driver list??").

Are you f**king serious!?! I got an nForce3-250 and nothing but my Edirol shows up in the ASIO list. I wasn't expecting anything so maybe I need to fiddle a bit since I installed the Edirol and disabled the on-board audio before I did anything else.

[stefancrs]

A lot of people buy amd+nforce, without knowing they get asio for free (I didn't know it, I noticed it after buying a new soundcard: "wtf? what's this nvidia asio thingy in my asio driver list??").

Are you f**king serious!?! I got an nForce3-250 and nothing but my Edirol shows up in the ASIO list. I wasn't expecting anything so maybe I need to fiddle a bit since I installed the Edirol and disabled the on-board audio before I did anything else.

Weird, yes, I'm totally serious. Without installing any extra drivers or anything I got both my audiophile asio and the nvidia asio drivers there. Have tested the nvidia asio on both my own and on my gf's computer (she's got no extra soundcard), and can easily run it at 5ms latency. Only thing driver-wise installed is the nvidia nforce chipset drivers, audiow-wise, on her computer.

edit: A friend of mine has a totally different computer with nforce chipset. He uses the built in asio-enabled soundcard as his primary soundcard (in cubase sx).

[BONES]

Umm, I know this is hard for you, but what if you don't need those features and you'd prefer something that costs $299 and is a lot easier to use?

To do what? Its purely a little toy for editors to use so that they can think they are artists. Mind you, most editors I know have absolutely no desire to be artists.

[BONES]

Cheapest PC offering similar performance might be around 1500 bucks. Plus SX, plus Komplete 2, plus a comprehensive package of FX plugins - your at least at 3000 total now.

Or you could buy ORION Platinum for about $300 and get all the quality of Logic and NI and all the rest with the easiest to use GUI around. That would make the total $1800.