Apple introduces M2 Ultra

[revvy]

Which audio drivers should I use for my Mac?

Is my Mini built -in sound card full-duplex? (I wanna listen to mp3s on WinAmp while I’m composing in my DAW).

Full duplex.... winamp. Words I didn't hear since a long time....
Does the m2 support mmx instruction set?

Only if it uses all 32 bits.

[dellboy]

It’s short sighted to look at products like Apple Silicon and think that the thermal advantages are only good for low powered mobile devices.

I agree with that. I use both pc and mac and normally I consider both are the same roughly but now I feel mac has taken an edge in usability because of this thermal advantage.

I agree, this latest Mac is the pinnacle of computer design. That brings with it pros and cons. You select it online, spec it out, buy it, and then use it. That's it. no upgrade path, no adding graphics cards, no adding more ram, no adding extra internal storage, no need, it just works. Nothing else to do but make music. A bit like electric cars. Specced out at purchase, and nothing left to do but drive. And soon it will drive itself. Welcome to the future.

[jamcat]

There actually is an upgrade path. It’s called trade-in. My MacBook Pro is worth over $1500 towards a newer model.

[Jim Roseberry]

Yeah, this is starting to get toxic again so sad..
For years, I have been using computers from both brands, enjoying working with both operating systems, and I have never felt attacked when someone criticizes either one. It's always the same people in this forum who angrily demand that others leave forum threads because they think it's their own product, their own baby whatever.. which is completely absurd. This intense defensive attitude is simply ridiculous, just like in the instrument forum. When someone likes synth A and not B it soon gets ugly.
I personally find Jim's input and comparisons really interesting and relevant to the topic. Please don't let yourself be influenced by this negativity.

Yes Jim comparing a top of the line PC to a Mac Mini, at first calling it an “M2 Pro”, was very revealing,

Uhhh... you do know that specific Mac Mini is using a M2 Pro CPU.
Apple's name... not mine

[dellboy]

There actually is an upgrade path. It’s called trade-in. My MacBook Pro is worth over $1500 towards a newer model.

Yes, that's a great thing about Macs, they hold their value and can be traded in for a new one. Although I think the value you have attributed to yours is probably a bit optimistic based on what I have read. Is it a very new highly specced model?. Personally, I chose to sell my Mac Mini on ebay, and was very pleased with the price I got. I currently have an iphone 13 and would probably sell it for cash rather than trade in. But why would you need to trade in an M2 Ultra? Its probably good for ten years, and should handle everything you could throw at it.

[pierb]

The Ultra is not a laptop CPU

I was commenting on the benchmark comparing the M1 Pro, M2 Pro, and the 13900K.

[jamcat]

Yes, that's a great thing about Macs, they hold their value and can be traded in for a new one. Although I think the value you have attributed to yours is probably a bit optimistic based on what I have read. Is it a very new highly specced model?

I have a 16” M1 Pro. 32GB, 1TB. $1560 is what the Apple trade-in page quoted me.

[machinesworking]

It’s short sighted to look at products like Apple Silicon and think that the thermal advantages are only good for low powered mobile devices.

I agree with that. I use both pc and mac and normally I consider both are the same roughly but now I feel mac has taken an edge in usability because of this thermal advantage.

I agree, this latest Mac is the pinnacle of computer design. That brings with it pros and cons. You select it online, spec it out, buy it, and then use it. That's it. no upgrade path, no adding graphics cards, no adding more ram, no adding extra internal storage, no need, it just works. Nothing else to do but make music. A bit like electric cars. Specced out at purchase, and nothing left to do but drive. And soon it will drive itself. Welcome to the future.

I have a 2009 Mac Pro, one of the last upgradable macs. I de-lidded two 6 core 3.33Ghz. Xeons and installed them, along with m.2 NVME drives in the PCIe slots, USB3 PCIe, a larger AMD graphics card for Metal and later OS's etc. but it's done. Yes, I eked out a few more years out of it with all those upgrades, but at some point, the system bus is too slow for any speeds faster than 1500MB/s, is barely supports thunderbolt, not everything works with the card, and it's not able to support anything faster than the Xeons in it right now. Just saying, you can tout upgrading as great and I agree to a degree, but at some point you're done, and a machine isn't getting any better.

what you get in reverse with SOC is better performance per watt right now, so you pick your poison.

[dellboy]

I have a 2009 Mac Pro, one of the last upgradable macs. I de-lidded two 6 core 3.33Ghz. Xeons and installed them, along with m.2 NVME drives in the PCIe slots, USB3 PCIe, a larger AMD graphics card for Metal and later OS's etc. but it's done. Yes, I eked out a few more years out of it with all those upgrades, but at some point, the system bus is too slow for any speeds faster than 1500MB/s, is barely supports thunderbolt, not everything works with the card, and it's not able to support anything faster than the Xeons in it right now. Just saying, you can tout upgrading as great and I agree to a degree, but at some point you're done, and a machine isn't getting any better.

what you get in reverse with SOC is better performance per watt right now, so you pick your poison.

The next generation will not know about "de-lidding" a cpu, (scary) and overclocking etc. And they will never "hotrod" a car, it will just be a "buy it-and use it" and "recycle it" generation.

[jamcat]

And they will never "hotrod" a car, it will just be a "buy it-and use it" and "recycle it" generation.

No, it will be a service on demand generation. They will own nothing, and they’ll be told that is what it means to be happy.

[sQeetz]

No, it will be a service on demand generation. They will own nothing, and they’ll be told that is what it means to be happy.

I'd not be happy about de-lidding anything. Past me might be inclined to go though some hoops to achieve a small percentage increase in processing power... Present me doesn't give a shit.
Machine isn't cutting it anymore? List it on eBay and get a new one.
The "own nothing" thing doesn't really apply here. Actual music and movies... that's where this really matters. It's ages ago I bought a CD.

[machinesworking]

No, it will be a service on demand generation. They will own nothing, and they’ll be told that is what it means to be happy.

Yes, being able to fix your own appliances is great, not having to fix them is better.

I'd not be happy about de-lidding anything. Past me might be inclined to go though some hoops to achieve a small percentage increase in processing power... Present me doesn't give a shit.
Machine isn't cutting it anymore? List it on eBay and get a new one.
The "own nothing" thing doesn't really apply here. Actual music and movies... that's where this really matters. It's ages ago I bought a CD.

The myth of ownership as some proof of value. or some consumer driven idea of what freedom is. What we buy is not who we are, and yes I'm happy not de-lidding chips, it's a scrotum clincher to take a couple hundred dollars worth of chips do that sort of thing to them.

[keyman_sam]

M1 Pro
Cinebench R23

• multi-core = 12,359
  single-core = 1,532

M2 Pro
Cinebench R23

• multi-core = 11,791
  single-core = 1,654

13900k
Cinebench R23

• multi-core = 41,039
  single-core = 2,274

Loaded Kontakt (96k using a 64-sample buffer size) and opened The Grandeur (piano library).
M.2 SSD (3500MB/Sec) was used for streaming samples (Mac and PC).
Played heavily sustained fast runs up/down the keyboard (voice count ~100).


M2 Pro
CPU use ~25% and always glitches (audible pop) when releasing the sustain pedal.

13900k
CPU use ~8% with zero glitches. You can get your Rachmaninoff fix... with zero worries about glitches.

This is one of the first audio specific tests that I do... as it's quick/easy and gives an idea of how much disk-streaming polyphony is possible (under demanding circumstances).

I had planned to do significantly more testing... but there's no point.

On the Windows side, performance gain from adding cores doesn't scale 1:1.
IOW, Doubling the number of CPU cores doesn't double the processing power.
Extrapolate and say that Apple has done an amazing job and that doubling the number of cores with M2 Ultra doubles the M2 Pro's performance. No doubt the Studio model has more robust cooling and that would also help.
Double the M2 Pro's performance would put the M2 Ultra in the realm of the 12700k.
Considering the tight enclosures, that's really not bad.
If Apple wants the M2 to compete head-to-head with the 13900k and 7950x, they're going to have to crank the clock-speed and TDP (just like Intel and AMD).
My guess is Apple won't do this... because that's not their target market (which is a lot larger than those chasing the performance dragon).

Interesting. So, there's a simple use case that does bring the M2 to it's heels?

What were the Kontakt settings? Is it to use all cores? Preload buffer size? Which DAW, and which version of Kontakt? Was it standalone Kontakt?

I do have to say it's amazing that such desktop-competing performance comes from the tinny 'ittle Mac mini for the fraction of the cost (??) + form factor + heat + energy. What is the cost of the PC that ran this test Jim?

I've also seen production videos of Jacob collier where he'd often get crashes on his fully decked out iMac. I wonder what he makes of the new Mac Studios. When the M1 Ultra came out, I thought he is one of the few people on the planet that can bring this beast to its knees on an actual project that sounds musical (not counting Hollywood composers who have 1000s of tracks in their template, diff. use case). i.e. Jacob Collier is legit limited by the machine and not his creativity

[Weasel-Boy]

I have a 16” M1 Pro. 32GB, 1TB. $1560 is what the Apple trade-in page quoted me.

Really? I have the same model in mint shape (MacBook Pro M1 Pro 10-Core CPU and 16-Core GPU 16" (Late 2021) 2TB SSD) and they just quoted $1155. I guess you have a bigger CPU and SSD.

[jamcat]

I have a 16” M1 Pro. 32GB, 1TB. $1560 is what the Apple trade-in page quoted me.

Really? I have the same model in mint shape (MacBook Pro M1 Pro 10-Core CPU and 16-Core GPU 16" (Late 2021) 2TB SSD) and they just quoted $1155. I guess you have a bigger CPU and SSD.

I went back and took another look. It says:

MacBook Pro 16”
Estimated trade-in value:
Up to $1560

So while they identified my computer by name through my Apple ID, maybe this is not in fact the amount I would get for my particular configuration? I didn’t actually go through the process, but I assumed that this was as estimate for my computer if it is in good condition (which it is.)

I traded in a 16” 2016 MacBook Pro with 512GB SSD and 16GB RAM for a bit over $700 towards my M1 Pro.