Roli: Equator 2 is here !

[SamDi]

OK, I had a look at it. It's good reproducable with the "Acoustic Piano" preset. It happens also on BW5. It seems to be determined by problems to restore the preset correctly when loading, because the wrong sound is caused by the FX chain, having other settings than it should. That's the reason, why in the example video presets sound sometimes distorted, sometimes with phasing issues, etc. E.g. for the acoustic piano sound, when it is distorted, it comes from the SIMPLE DIST module which is full wet then and Fuzz has also a higher value. This is different from the values, when the piano sound works correctly.

Don't know, why it just happens at BW, but the main issue seems to be on ROLI's side and if presets are not loaded correctly with wrong FX settings, they should proove BW wrong, if it should be so.

[Echoes in the Attic]

OK, I had a look at it. It's good reproducable with the "Acoustic Piano" preset. It happens also on BW5. It seems to be determined by problems to restore the preset correctly when loading, because the wrong sound is caused by the FX chain, having other settings than it should. That's the reason, why in the example video presets sound sometimes distorted, sometimes with phasing issues, etc. E.g. for the acoustic piano sound, when it is distorted, it comes from the SIMPLE DIST module which is full wet then and Fuzz has also a higher value. This is different from the values, when the piano sound works correctly.

Don't know, why it just happens at BW, but the main issue seems to be on ROLI's side and if presets are not loaded correctly with wrong FX settings, they should proove BW wrong, if it should be so.

Ah cool. So I guess when the sound is too quiet may e just because an effect is turned down? That's good info to send to roli.

[MegaPixel]

OK, I had a look at it. It's good reproducable with the "Acoustic Piano" preset. It happens also on BW5. It seems to be determined by problems to restore the preset correctly when loading, because the wrong sound is caused by the FX chain, having other settings than it should. That's the reason, why in the example video presets sound sometimes distorted, sometimes with phasing issues, etc. E.g. for the acoustic piano sound, when it is distorted, it comes from the SIMPLE DIST module which is full wet then and Fuzz has also a higher value. This is different from the values, when the piano sound works correctly.

Don't know, why it just happens at BW, but the main issue seems to be on ROLI's side and if presets are not loaded correctly with wrong FX settings, they should proove BW wrong, if it should be so.

Ah cool. So I guess when the sound is too quiet may e just because an effect is turned down? That's good info to send to roli.

Note, this happens on a lot of presets, seems to add random effects and lfo's, what's added / messed up on load is almost random but you do seem to get similar results based on the preset you keep trying to reload.

[SamDi]

Note, this happens on a lot of presets, seems to add random effects and lfo's, what's added / messed up on load is almost random but you do seem to get similar results based on the preset you keep trying to reload.

Yes it seems to be very easy to reproduce, so there is no way they can put it on the "we can not reproduce/it's Bitwig/it's your system configuration" side.

[Ou_Tis]

Note, this happens on a lot of presets, seems to add random effects and lfo's, what's added / messed up on load is almost random but you do seem to get similar results based on the preset you keep trying to reload.

Yes it seems to be very easy to reproduce, so there is no way they can put it on the "we can not reproduce/it's Bitwig/it's your system configuration" side.

But it only happens in Bitwig... and only in relatively recent versions?

[SamDi]

Note, this happens on a lot of presets, seems to add random effects and lfo's, what's added / messed up on load is almost random but you do seem to get similar results based on the preset you keep trying to reload.

Yes it seems to be very easy to reproduce, so there is no way they can put it on the "we can not reproduce/it's Bitwig/it's your system configuration" side.

But it only happens in Bitwig... and only in relatively recent versions?

Yeah, but Equator does load it's own presets wrong. Whatever it is in Bitwig that stimulates or corresponds to this failure, the root cause seems to be on their side. As long as Bitwig does not actively change FX parameters during or after preset change, it's hard to believe that the main issue is not on Equator.

[Ou_Tis]

Yeah, but Equator does load it's own presets wrong. Whatever it is in Bitwig that stimulates or corresponds to this failure, the root cause seems to be on their side. As long as Bitwig does not actively change FX parameters during or after preset change, it's hard to believe that the main issue is not on Equator.

Equator2 and Equator are different synths. Equator loads a lot faster than Equator2.

Bitwig is niche enough that Roli might ignore it. As mentioned earlier in the thread, in the past when Bitwig support has claimed there's nothing they can do about an issue with a third-party program they've then fixed the issue in an update. If enough people complain to Bitwig, they might actually do something about it. I'm definitely not going to renew my upgrade plan until after this bug is fixed.

[SamDi]

Yeah, but Equator does load it's own presets wrong. Whatever it is in Bitwig that stimulates or corresponds to this failure, the root cause seems to be on their side. As long as Bitwig does not actively change FX parameters during or after preset change, it's hard to believe that the main issue is not on Equator.

Equator2 and Equator are different synths. Equator loads a lot faster than Equator2.

Bitwig is niche enough that Roli might ignore it. As mentioned earlier in the thread, in the past when Bitwig support has claimed there's nothing they can do about an issue with a third-party program they've then fixed the issue in an update. If enough people complain to Bitwig, they might actually do something about it. I'm definitely not going to renew my upgrade plan until after this bug is fixed.

Yes of course we are talking about Equator 2, it was too silly for me to add the 2 each time, because I thought it was clear we are talking about E2 here.

I would have thought that Equator (TWO!) is also pretty niche, more than BW even. Do what ever you want, but their ability to fix it is limited. How should they find out, what makes E2 running wrong? From the logic first ROLI needed to start to debug and look into the code. Of course B§ can compare it with former versions, when it‘s true, that the behavior was not visible with former versions. But who knows, if this is really true - might also be, that it came with the last E2 update (not sure, when it was).

[MegaPixel]

Bitwig is niche enough that Roli might ignore it. As mentioned earlier in the thread, in the past when Bitwig support has claimed there's nothing they can do about an issue with a third-party program they've then fixed the issue in an update. If enough people complain to Bitwig, they might actually do something about it. I'm definitely not going to renew my upgrade plan until after this bug is fixed.

Yes of course we are talking about Equator 2, it was too silly for me to add the 2 each time, because I thought it was clear we are talking about E2 here.

I would have thought that Equator (TWO!) is also pretty niche, more than BW even. Do what ever you want, but their ability to fix it is limited. How should they find out, what makes E2 running wrong? From the logic first ROLI needed to start to debug and look into the code. Of course B§ can compare it with former versions, when it‘s true, that the behavior was not visible with former versions. But who knows, if this is really true - might also be, that it came with the last E2 update (not sure, when it was).

Response from ROLI & Bitwig
As a programmer, I agree it could be bother and my bets neither bitwig or roli want to fix it, they have both already told me:
ROLI - "use a different daw"
BITWIG - "we don't have the source code, there is no way for us to debug it"

I agree with bitwig as a programmer but they could test latency or if the software fires a ready event or any event, but there isn't much they can do other than test such things like that.


Sandboxes/Container
Being a programmer (last time I'm going to say that lol), and the issue being:

A piece of software (Equator 2) that loads into a container in another piece of software (Bitwig), can't load it's own configuration files (presets/patches) correctly, I would lean 90% towards it being an Equator 2 problem.

It does come down to ROLI testing in bitwig, there are events from each DAW as a programmer (ok last last time) you need to pay attention to, I don't know all of them and I'm sure some DAWs have more, and others less. Eg. A HTML page has an DOM Ready event, to signify to JavaScript that it's now ok to work with the DOM (HTML elements loaded on to the page).

Now the container / sandboxing of plugins/software, this can change things but having used containers / sandboxes before, one you probably all have already used long ago and a good example of this was Flash, loading was all down to the programmer, not the browser or it's container/sandboxing technology. The container technology typically yields an event that it is ready or it doesn't even need to do this (probably doesn't in this case), as it's only itself that needs to know the container is ready, go ahead, load the plugin, then it's over to the plugin inside that sandbox/container.


As Equator 2 worked in the past in Bitwig.
(NOTE: I reported the problem to Roli in Jan / April)

To do a true test on which failed first we would need access to older versions of bitwig and older versions of equator 2, thanks to how roli installs things this isn't really possible. I've hacked my way through EQ2 files and thought about doing a byte level hack to move things and it's just not worth it. A very stupid feature from roli to inflict on it's users when virtually no other would constrain you like that. But without this it will be impossible to do an accurate test of older versions of each.


Bitwig being Niche
I would have said that back in version 2 days, but I now hear more and more people talking about and using Bitwig than I do FLStudio and StudioOne combined. But this may just be the circles I'm in.


Where does that leave us?
Well, neither ROLI or BITWIG are going to fix it, I've had their replies, but I'm only 1 person reporting the problem, I think it's on ROLI's side of things but I've reported it to both.

I would advise everyone do the same, the more of us that report the issue, the more of a chance someone will actually do something about it. State that it worked in older versions, which might get Bitwig to take a 2nd look.

Their support email address's to report the issue are:

rolisupport@roli.com
support@bitwig.com


Speaking of reporting bugs
I reported an issue with Bitwigs audio engine over the weekend, nothing major but when soloing or un-soloing a track in a group, in a fairly large project with mastering plugins giving latency on the master & fx tracks, the audio engine is not fast enough to know what should be muted and not muted for the solo preview as they would all sound in the group and then only the solo'd track would sound. Java's fast, but not that fast (c++), but then development time would be exponentially longer and more complicated.

[dlandis]

Probably should checkout Cypher 2 too

Both Cypher 2 and Strobe 2 (I think Cypher 2's problems tend to be more obvious) have issues in all DAWs that I've tried on some of the presets (distortion, usually), but most, if not all, of the issues can be fixed by reducing the number of voices. Neither Cypher 2 or Strobe 2 has had an update in a very, very long time. My impression is that ROLI has reduced their status to abandon-ware. Generally, if one remembers to reduce the available polyphony (voices) on the plug-in, problems can be worked out, FWIW.

[Ou_Tis]

Probably should checkout Cypher 2 too

Both Cypher 2 and Strobe 2 (I think Cypher 2's problems tend to be more obvious) have issues in all DAWs that I've tried on some of the presets (distortion, usually), but most, if not all, of the issues can be fixed by reducing the number of voices. Neither Cypher 2 or Strobe 2 has had an update in a very, very long time. My impression is that ROLI has reduced their status to abandon-ware. Generally, if one remembers to reduce the available polyphony (voices) on the plug-in, problems can be worked out, FWIW.

Roli did release Deep House for Cypher2 in March 2022, and also Techno Morphing Sequences sometime after that....

[dlandis]

OK, I had a look at it. It's good reproducable with the "Acoustic Piano" preset. It happens also on BW5. It seems to be determined by problems to restore the preset correctly when loading, because the wrong sound is caused by the FX chain, having other settings than it should. That's the reason, why in the example video presets sound sometimes distorted, sometimes with phasing issues, etc. E.g. for the acoustic piano sound, when it is distorted, it comes from the SIMPLE DIST module which is full wet then and Fuzz has also a higher value. This is different from the values, when the piano sound works correctly.

Don't know, why it just happens at BW, but the main issue seems to be on ROLI's side and if presets are not loaded correctly with wrong FX settings, they should proove BW wrong, if it should be so.

Ah cool. So I guess when the sound is too quiet may e just because an effect is turned down? That's good info to send to roli.

Note, this happens on a lot of presets, seems to add random effects and lfo's, what's added / messed up on load is almost random but you do seem to get similar results based on the preset you keep trying to reload.

FWIW, I'm getting this issue as well and have been for a while. Since I use Bitwig more than Studio One or Waveform for MPE (Studio One does not recognize "lift" and was pretty late to the MPE protocol), I wasn't sure that there was an issue other than what I chalked up to weak preset programming on Equator 2; I never thought to compare Studio One or Waveform. I will report this as well to both ROLI and Bitwig.

Perhaps, an answer is to open Equator 2 in another DAW and write down the FX parameters and adjust them in Bitwig, perhaps even saving the "edit" as a new patch? I haven't tried this, mind you, but maybe it's worth a shot?

[dlandis]

Probably should checkout Cypher 2 too

Both Cypher 2 and Strobe 2 (I think Cypher 2's problems tend to be more obvious) have issues in all DAWs that I've tried on some of the presets (distortion, usually), but most, if not all, of the issues can be fixed by reducing the number of voices. Neither Cypher 2 or Strobe 2 has had an update in a very, very long time. My impression is that ROLI has reduced their status to abandon-ware. Generally, if one remembers to reduce the available polyphony (voices) on the plug-in, problems can be worked out, FWIW.

Roli did release Deep House for Cypher2 in March 2022, and also Techno Morphing Sequences sometime after that....

Yes, but that's over a year ago now. The last update was, I think, long before that. It's even been a
while, though not anywhere near as long, if memory serves, since Equator 2 has been updated. It seems that their current priorities are focused on getting their hardware offerings out the door consistently.

[psynical]

Wow. What a disaster. I did some testing in BW 4.4.10 and it's basically ALL presets that are affected. I thought maybe it had something to do with only the MPE presets, but no, both standard and MPE are affected by the bug.

[dlandis]

Wow. What a disaster. I did some testing in BW 4.4.10 and it's basically ALL presets that are affected. I thought maybe it had something to do with only the MPE presets, but no, both standard and MPE are affected by the bug.

There may be a work-around of sorts:

I opened Equator 2 in both Studio One and Bitwig and copied the FX settings manually over from Studio One to the Bitwig instance, then saved the edited Bitwig instance preset with my initials to denote the preset I'd saved. I closed Bitwig and restarted. I used "Additive Elegance" for starters.

It seems to have worked; I do say this tentatively because it's only one patch, and, yes, it's slightly cumbersome, but it seems to have worked.

EDIT: I just tried "Acoustic Piano" for my second experiment, manually rewriting the FX parameters and resaving, and it worked well. I noticed that the LFO 1 parameters needed tweaking as well.