My final song levels when completed always seem so low ... Eg -20db for complete song.
I must I guess turn my monitors down and levels up.
As a guideline, to get my mix in a roughly good position level-wise (eg -10 to -6db) when finished, what approximately is a guideline to have the kick and bass starting at?
Or does it just not matter - can always boost the level at the end?
What starting level should I aim the bass/kick to be?
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- KVRAF
- 8691 posts since 24 May, 2002 from Tutukaka, New Zealand
You can just boost it at the end, or more sensibly just start with you kick higher than what you do now (assuming you start with a kick...which you don't have to). Believe it or not, I've been doing it 30-plus years and I never had a "starting level" for my kicks. Music by numbers just doesn't appeal to me and is only one way amongst many - it'll work for some and that's OK, but you don’t have to.
End of mix I generally aim for -1 or so. If that's what I'm aiming end result for, that's what I aim mix level for, but if it's higher or lower TBH who cares? In a DAW if you go over it's no problem - A) I'm going to be compressing, limiting etc so they're going to get my peaks down to what I want, or I can pull the master faders down. If it's too low, similarly I can either pull the master up, or simply increase output of the comp/limiter etc. That was not anything like how I worked in hw when I started but that's completely for different reasons that do not apply to digital in a DAW. Though I still use a lot of hw and I still gain stage for that, obviously. But for digital, I say don't bother about levels - mostly it's a moot point. Levels too low can be a pain, if only for the fact your faders are way down and not much to compare the levels of faders - much easier when you've got full length rather than a few mm at the bottom of each fader. I usually don't touch my master faders, but that's really only habit from hw use way back. No reason not to pull that fader up/down in a DAW nowadays.
You'll no doubt get answers that kick should be at -X dB and mix should be at -Y dB and they're not wrong, but they're not right either. You don’t have to is all I'm saying. By the way, I still make 4 to the floor stuff alongside other styles, so I do know what we're talking about. You'll see numpties on YT saying all kinds of crap just because they've seen other numpties parrot it before them. It's crap. Now if you said you were working in hw my answer would be completely different...but for inside a DAW...forget it, don't obsess. Use gain plugins, use your master fader, use plugin outputs or any other way you see fit.
End of mix I generally aim for -1 or so. If that's what I'm aiming end result for, that's what I aim mix level for, but if it's higher or lower TBH who cares? In a DAW if you go over it's no problem - A) I'm going to be compressing, limiting etc so they're going to get my peaks down to what I want, or I can pull the master faders down. If it's too low, similarly I can either pull the master up, or simply increase output of the comp/limiter etc. That was not anything like how I worked in hw when I started but that's completely for different reasons that do not apply to digital in a DAW. Though I still use a lot of hw and I still gain stage for that, obviously. But for digital, I say don't bother about levels - mostly it's a moot point. Levels too low can be a pain, if only for the fact your faders are way down and not much to compare the levels of faders - much easier when you've got full length rather than a few mm at the bottom of each fader. I usually don't touch my master faders, but that's really only habit from hw use way back. No reason not to pull that fader up/down in a DAW nowadays.
You'll no doubt get answers that kick should be at -X dB and mix should be at -Y dB and they're not wrong, but they're not right either. You don’t have to is all I'm saying. By the way, I still make 4 to the floor stuff alongside other styles, so I do know what we're talking about. You'll see numpties on YT saying all kinds of crap just because they've seen other numpties parrot it before them. It's crap. Now if you said you were working in hw my answer would be completely different...but for inside a DAW...forget it, don't obsess. Use gain plugins, use your master fader, use plugin outputs or any other way you see fit.
Last edited by kritikon on Wed Jun 28, 2023 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 8691 posts since 24 May, 2002 from Tutukaka, New Zealand
Slight "but what if" addendum though - if you're using some analogue emu type plugins you might have to get certain specific levels. Thing like amps etc where they're emulating real world behavior of high levels saturating/distorting and not linearly, THEN you likely have to pay attention to levels. But I rarely use those plugins, I find them mostly to be mystical woo. For example saturation...WTF would I want emulate an inferior medium? Hype has blinded an awful lot of people. They have their place but I feel they incredibly overused and abused. But anyone else can distort their music all they want. It's their music. But it is DISTORTION, remember that.
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- KVRAF
- 8691 posts since 24 May, 2002 from Tutukaka, New Zealand
Addendum 2. Here's another little tip/trick or "hack" (if you're an idiot). If you for whatever reason need your master mix to be higher or even lower, if you massively overshot and you specifically want to use mastering plugins that respond to unity level etc...rather than dick about with a shitload of individual channel levels, go back and route all channels to a group or groups. Then you can simply pull the group up or down to get you master channel where you want. I usually use groups for anything I do - useful for group processing but also exactly for this, and for mixing in general. It's a simple effective way of controlling your master level if you've gone a bit astray with levels from the start. Most DAWs have them, so use them. They're not just for splatting your drums into a flatline. 
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 128 posts since 3 Apr, 2012 from Finland
Yes, I should have said, I am working inside a DAW, using mostly soft synths. My final mixes come out always quite low, around -20db, and I'm looking for some basic guidelines how to get a final mix level at a level that is around -10db - -6db, prior to mastering.
So much I read about not being too hot, and clipping the master, my issue is the other way around.
So much I read about not being too hot, and clipping the master, my issue is the other way around.
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- KVRian
- 1185 posts since 27 Apr, 2016
For electronic music if you peak a kick at -14dBFS you cannot go far wrong. I am a mastering engineer here and usually peak a kick to -12dBFS and never have clips on the master output for my own music making. That may depend a little on genre or mixing style. It need not be more complicated than that really.
As Kritikon mentioned some analogue plug in models have their internal gain staging for a saturation response set for lower level than that -18dBFS as an example.
If your mix is peaking anywhere between -18dBFS and -6dBFS it is all going to be fine for an export at 24 bit depth.
-20dBFS is completely fine as well. I get mixes in here anywhere between -20dBFS and -1dBFS peak, it's all totally fine.
As Kritikon mentioned some analogue plug in models have their internal gain staging for a saturation response set for lower level than that -18dBFS as an example.
If your mix is peaking anywhere between -18dBFS and -6dBFS it is all going to be fine for an export at 24 bit depth.
-20dBFS is completely fine as well. I get mixes in here anywhere between -20dBFS and -1dBFS peak, it's all totally fine.
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- KVRAF
- 14148 posts since 20 Nov, 2003 from Lost and Spaced
Barricade. +6 db on Input, -0.02 on Output.