Ableton Push 3 - standalone MPE controller

[machinesworking]

This guy gets it. 45 min...no computer... no arrangement view ...just loops, effects, and live playing, using the ADAT interface to route multiple external effects through sends...a live album worth of material. This is the market for the push.

Absolutely nothing done there couldn't be done with the controller only version. This is the silliness of all of this. The idea that you have a no VST/AU stand alone Linux computer with Live Suite installed, then sit in your studio using it instead of your studio....

Again, the whole logical point of stand alone is to be able to write songs on your bed, in a hotel, at your relatives, on vacation, on tour when not on stage etc. etc. Otherwise it's a limited toy.

[DrGonzo]

In either case, that was a really nice set. A nice balance between prerecorded stuff and things done on the fly.

Thanks for posting.

[drez]

This guy gets it. 45 min...no computer... no arrangement view ...just loops, effects, and live playing, using the ADAT interface to route multiple external effects through sends...a live album worth of material. This is the market for the push.

Absolutely nothing done there couldn't be done with the controller only version. This is the silliness of all of this. The idea that you have a no VST/AU stand alone Linux computer with Live Suite installed, then sit in your studio using it instead of your studio....

He's going to be performing this as a live set in a month. He just recorded it for his YouTube channel. And no, you couldn't do that with the controller version. You'd have to have the computer hooked up to the controller version to do that set. He'll be doing that set live with just the push standalone.

Again, the whole logical point of stand alone is to be able to write songs on your bed, in a hotel, at your relatives, on vacation, on tour when not on stage etc. etc. Otherwise it's a limited toy.

That's how you would use it. You could write songs in your bed with a push controller and a laptop for the last 10 years. That's nothing new.

This guy did an album worth of songs without using arrangement mode. They were all loops. You can write those anywhere...at your relatives...on vacation, on tour. Not only that, performing on standalone free's up your laptop to do anything else, like run resolume for video, lighting, hell you could even run "songs in arrangement view" on your computer and play your push standalone sync'd separately. The push is a performance instrument. I don't think I've ever seen any of their marketing say "this is a linear song creation tool". They market it as an "expressive standalone instrument". People keep saying its "missing arrangement editing" but it's not missing it if it was never intended to do it

If I may ask, which push have you been using? 1? 2? How have you been using it up to now?

[machinesworking]

He's going to be performing this as a live set in a month. He just recorded it for his YouTube channel. And no, you couldn't do that with the controller version. You'd have to have the computer hooked up to the controller version to do that set. He'll be doing that set live with just the push standalone.

Seriously, the Controller version of course has to be hooked up to a laptop. The point I made was obvious, you're obfuscating for reasons unknown.

Again, the whole logical point of stand alone is to be able to write songs on your bed, in a hotel, at your relatives, on vacation, on tour when not on stage etc. etc. Otherwise it's a limited toy.

That's how you would use it. You could write songs in your bed with a push controller and a laptop for the last 10 years. That's nothing new.

Again, why miss the point to make none? I do all the things I mentioned, and I get tired of setting up a laptop, audio interface, Push 2 and an MPE device. So personally I got excited about stand alone, then got let down.

This guy did an album worth of songs without using arrangement mode. They were all loops. You can write those anywhere...at your relatives...on vacation, on tour. Not only that, performing on standalone free's up your laptop to do anything else, like run resolume for video, lighting, hell you could even run "songs in arrangement view" on your computer and play your push standalone sync'd separately. The push is a performance instrument. I don't think I've ever seen any of their marketing say "this is a linear song creation tool". They market it as an "expressive standalone instrument". People keep saying its "missing arrangement editing" but it's not missing it if it was never intended to do it

If I may ask, which push have you been using? 1? 2? How have you been using it up to now?

So, first off, this guy is using Push in a way I don't. I sometimes write songs by throwing a bunch of loops into Session View and playing or arranging them, but not that often. I prefer the standard rock format of songwriting about 80% of the time. So I use Scenes more than "playing" Push as an instrument. Yeah it's crazy, people use Push in different ways, I mostly use it to try out different parts in Session, mixing and mastering, automation, and drum programing.

Secondly I've been using Live since version 3, I owned Push 1, then upgraded to Push 2. This isn't some dick waving contest, and your attempt at out pro-ing me on Push is sad.

Last, you're going to do what when some sort of Arrangement or Follow Actions come to Push? Act like you never blabbed about how Push was only an instrument at people requesting these things is my guess! Push 3 can already record and store a Session jam, it can already record in stand alone to Arrangement. There's not much of a jump to Follow Actions and a simplified collapsed Arrangement style view with limited editing. That's my guess as to where this goes, but knowing Ableton this will take a year or three, that's why I cancelled my pre order.

I'm not at all upset that people are already in love with it, but it's inevitable that they have to come up with a better solution than just being able to record your Session jams without being able to even play them from what I know? The fact that you can at least do that, and having the competition be vastly more powerful composition wise while being cheaper is another huge tell.

[DrGonzo]

How old is Push 3 standalone now? A month old? Give it time to grow.

[machinesworking]

How old is Push 3 standalone now? A month old? Give it time to grow.

No!








[...or more to the point, you can't evaluate something purely on potential, you have to take it at face value for what it can do right now. It's possible that it never gets Follow Actions or some simplified Arrangement View, and if I had not been diligent in finding out what it could do VS Push 2 and cancelled my pre order, I would be even more enraged about a 2K software limited device like Push 3.]

[drez]

He's going to be performing this as a live set in a month. He just recorded it for his YouTube channel. And no, you couldn't do that with the controller version. You'd have to have the computer hooked up to the controller version to do that set. He'll be doing that set live with just the push standalone.

Seriously, the Controller version of course has to be hooked up to a laptop. The point I made was obvious, you're obfuscating for reasons unknown.

I don't understand your point. He will be performing live on stage without his computer hooked up to the push. So, no you could not do that with just the controller version. I don't know what I'd be "obfuscating".

Again, the whole logical point of stand alone is to be able to write songs on your bed, in a hotel, at your relatives, on vacation, on tour when not on stage etc. etc. Otherwise it's a limited toy.

That's how you would use it. You could write songs in your bed with a push controller and a laptop for the last 10 years. That's nothing new.

Again, why miss the point to make none? I do all the things I mentioned, and I get tired of setting up a laptop, audio interface, Push 2 and an MPE device. So personally I got excited about stand alone, then got let down.

So are you saying that if you just got the controller version, you personally would be better off because you'd just have to have a laptop and the push 3 instead of laptop/push/audio int/ and MPE device? Then you'd basically be doing the same thing you are doing today with less equipment?

This guy did an album worth of songs without using arrangement mode. They were all loops. You can write those anywhere...at your relatives...on vacation, on tour. Not only that, performing on standalone free's up your laptop to do anything else, like run resolume for video, lighting, hell you could even run "songs in arrangement view" on your computer and play your push standalone sync'd separately. The push is a performance instrument. I don't think I've ever seen any of their marketing say "this is a linear song creation tool". They market it as an "expressive standalone instrument". People keep saying its "missing arrangement editing" but it's not missing it if it was never intended to do it

If I may ask, which push have you been using? 1? 2? How have you been using it up to now?

So, first off, this guy is using Push in a way I don't. I sometimes write songs by throwing a bunch of loops into Session View and playing or arranging them, but not that often. I prefer the standard rock format of songwriting about 80% of the time. So I use Scenes more than "playing" Push as an instrument. Yeah it's crazy, people use Push in different ways, I mostly use it to try out different parts in Session, mixing and mastering, automation, and drum programing.

My belief is that the majority of the users out there are using the push like this guy is. As a performance tool, not as a midi controller for a DAW. Which is why I asked about how you use yours...

Secondly I've been using Live since version 3, I owned Push 1, then upgraded to Push 2. This isn't some dick waving contest, and your attempt at out pro-ing me on Push is sad.

Not a dick waving contest. I was trying to understand your use case. And the push 1 and push 2 are very different devices, so wanted to understand which of those platforms you had been exposed to and how you used it. Thank you for explaining.

Last, you're going to do what when some sort of Arrangement or Follow Actions come to Push? Act like you never blabbed about how Push was only an instrument at people requesting these things is my guess! Push 3 can already record and store a Session jam, it can already record in stand alone to Arrangement. There's not much of a jump to Follow Actions and a simplified collapsed Arrangement style view with limited editing. That's my guess as to where this goes, but knowing Ableton this will take a year or three, that's why I cancelled my pre order.

I already stated a post or two back that I thought that they would add follow actions. It makes total sense for a performance instrument. I think it would be great! Like I said, you can still trigger scenes if you want to and improv and have the follow actions pick right back up. Also, you can use follow actions right now when using it especially as a performance instrument because you set them up on the laptop and then load the set on the standalone and have at it. It's still possible to use that functionality right now.

I also stated that I think it would be a long time before they even considered an arrangement view, and that it would be extremely hard to use, given that you just have buttons and knobs and no touch screen. They could totally do a mouse via usb and make an arrangement view of some sort, but I personally don't think that's their intent for the platform.

I'm not at all upset that people are already in love with it, but it's inevitable that they have to come up with a better solution than just being able to record your Session jams without being able to even play them from what I know? The fact that you can at least do that, and having the competition be vastly more powerful composition wise while being cheaper is another huge tell.

I don't see what is more powerful composition wise, but that's ok, that's a preference thing IMO. I would never use an MPC or Maschine over it. The only thing I use my Maschine Mikro for is straight up finger drumming because of the spacing of the pads (but the sensitivity of the P3 pads is winning me over completely, even though they are closer together), but for actually "playing music", there's no 4x4 pad controller that's even close to being able to play melodies, comping, any chords at all, etc. Especially the Push2 vs Push3 pads. Huge step forward. If they didn't have a standalone push, I would definitely have gotten the push 3 for the pads alone.

I think there are people that want the P3S to be "Ableton Live Standalone" but it turned out to be "Push Standalone", just like they marketed it and turned out to be an advancement of the same thing it always was. For me, and others, that was just fine. For you, and others, that wasn't I think you definitely dodged a bullet by cancelling your preorder, you would not be happy with it at all, I don't think. And you would have had a hard time getting it returned, apparently. Been difficult to get that done from Ableton.

[carrieres]

thanks for the video, wonderful music

[pdxindy]

This guy gets it. 45 min...no computer... no arrangement view ...just loops, effects, and live playing, using the ADAT interface to route multiple external effects through sends...a live album worth of material. This is the market for the push.

I think Push 3 is an excellent new tool... but come on, no computer? P3S is a computer.

[machinesworking]

I don't see what is more powerful composition wise, but that's ok, that's a preference thing IMO. I would never use an MPC or Maschine over it. The only thing I use my Maschine Mikro for is straight up finger drumming because of the spacing of the pads (but the sensitivity of the P3 pads is winning me over completely, even though they are closer together), but for actually "playing music", there's no 4x4 pad controller that's even close to being able to play melodies, comping, any chords at all, etc. Especially the Push2 vs Push3 pads. Huge step forward. If they didn't have a standalone push, I would definitely have gotten the push 3 for the pads alone.

I think there are people that want the P3S to be "Ableton Live Standalone" but it turned out to be "Push Standalone", just like they marketed it and turned out to be an advancement of the same thing it always was. For me, and others, that was just fine. For you, and others, that wasn't I think you definitely dodged a bullet by cancelling your preorder, you would not be happy with it at all, I don't think. And you would have had a hard time getting it returned, apparently. Been difficult to get that done from Ableton.

Part of composition is the completion of a song. Right now the MPCs are vastly more powerful in this one area. It’s possible that Ableton change this but again relying on possible futures is never a good idea.

That said IMO they made a mistake, they can’t have possibly wanted the DAWless crowd and people wanting to use it to complete a song without using the computer at all to be disappointed. They obviously weren’t set up to handle the amount of returns they’re dealing with, and IMO they will introduce Follow actions and some simple Arrangement feature in standalone. They released it early, my guess for the same reasons that NI ships dozens of Kontakt Romplers with Komplete these days, marketing won the argument. Just like they won the argument when Max 4 Live was introduced in v8 and Live became an unstable mess.

Again, every other solution similar, (i.e. every other software sequencer with a standalone hardware version) has a better composition to arrangement solution. The pads on the Push 3 look great, the fact that it does MPE is great. It’s the limitations of the hardware as a standalone device that’s at issue for me, the controller itself is great.

And Pdxindy is correct, it’s a computer, capable of being more than what Ableton have launched it with.

[elxsound]

How old is Push 3 standalone now? A month old? Give it time to grow.

No!








[...or more to the point, you can't evaluate something purely on potential, you have to take it at face value for what it can do right now. It's possible that it never gets Follow Actions or some simplified Arrangement View, and if I had not been diligent in finding out what it could do VS Push 2 and cancelled my pre order, I would be even more enraged about a 2K software limited device like Push 3.]

You should be diligent about how something will or will not suit your needs at 2k.

What I don’t get is why the rage in the first place.

There are tons of $2k+ instruments out there that don’t suit my needs. It’s disappointing, but since I’m not designing it, why would I expect it to do exactly what I want… and the missing features just saved you $2k!

[elxsound]

Here’s a link to better understand WHY Push was designed: https://musictech.com/features/intervie ... generation

It might cause more rage, but maybe it’ll help?

[drez]

Here’s a link to better understand WHY Push was designed: https://musictech.com/features/intervie ... generation

It might cause more rage, but maybe it’ll help?

Ah yeah, I forgot about that article. This covers it.

[machinesworking]

Here’s a link to better understand WHY Push was designed: https://musictech.com/features/intervie ... generation

It might cause more rage, but maybe it’ll help?

No one questions why it was made. Without the computer, the controller only version is great, I will probably pick one up one of these days. The question is why would even the designer admit the standalone is limited as of now?

“We hear it a lot,” he says. “There’s certainly work we need to do so that you can easily put together at least the sketch of a song. You’re never gonna get into the details of how you fade and automate in an Arrangement View on a monitor screen. But can we get to a place that’s closer to that? I hope so yeah, for sure. We hear that request loud and clear.”

Sounds like there are already alphas of a basic arrangement for Push 3 standalone. Anyway, you have to get it by now, they released it early, maybe to iron out any bugs before some way to write a whole composition on it was added? who knows? One thing is clear, even the developers know it's a legit request, and folks getting ticked off at people complaining about the lack of Follow Actions and Arrangement etc. on standalone will be the same people saying how much better it is than all the rest etc. There are always loyalists and critics.

[pdxindy]

My belief is that the majority of the users out there are using the push like this guy is.

That might be because the device is not conducive to other workflows. So of course it then self selects.