Pitch Shifting.

[someone89a]

So I've been using Line6's Helix Native for about 5 years - I use it for all my guitar sounds - but good lord that plugin is a buggy mess. Crashes often, seemingly leaks memory, laggy, lots of problems. So I've been slowly replacing my need to use it with other things. However I can't find anything that can do pitch shifting/tracking like it can...

I was talking about this on the ImageLine forums so I'll paste what I wrote there:

IL's pitch shifter is great - but it only highlights what is so good about Helix's pitch shifters.

IL's Pitch Shifter has two modes: music & voice - music works on a granular engine, voice works on what I presume is a spectral engine (due to formant preservation)

Music does not track pitch - instead it offers manual control over the granular parameters. This makes it great for grainy pitch shift effects - but for drop tune and clean pitched up/down guitar sounds it suffers - as the granular parameters for clean shifting are different dependent on the input notes.

Voice does track pitch - however due to it's (presumably) spectral engine, it can add anywhere between 25ms and 60ms or latency per instance. 25ms is already on the border of unplayable - but the problem arises that due to that on the "Fast" setting, lower guitar notes are completely lost and can't be accurately tracked. For live use with guitars in drop C# this doesn't work all too well.

This is why Helix (unfortunately) wins out on pitch shifting.

Firstly it has multiple different pitch shift models - split into two categories: the "Whammy" style, and the "Poly" style. The whammy works with incredibly low latency (below what I can even perceive) but doesn't track chordal playing too well. Poly adds a little bit of latency (again, below what I can perceive) but tracks chords. In addition they have guitar to synth effects and pitch harmonisers - both of which rely on pitch tracking - and again, both operate with near zero perceivable latency.

The pitch tracking is also flawless - tracking all the way down to a low drop C# on a BASS! Thats insane for ANY pitch shifter to manage...

In addition to the zero latency across all models - this is remarkable.

Somehow Line 6 have developed a pitch-tracking algorithm that is basically zero latency, low CPU cost (on computers - it destroys the Helix hardware units), and perfectly accurate across a HUGE range of pitches. And then they have implemented it to work alongside finely tuned granular engines (and I assume they have to be granular due to the low latency).

ALSO! I can stack 8 pitch shifters next to each other, and still have no latency... HOW?????

By inspecting the waveforms, there is basically zero loss of timbral information when you shift a signal with Helix - the periodicity simply becomes shorter or longer - as if you were just playing a different pitch.

It's remarkable - but its a buggy, broken, memory leaking, laggy, hard to use, unreliable, scrapheap of a plugin.

Nothing comes close to it from my testing - and I have been testing for months - even tried building my own. But I can't get anything close...

Soundtoys Little Alter Boy? Huge latency
kHs Pitch Shifter? Large latency, especially when stacking multiple instances or across tracks
Melda MHarmoniser? Either large latency or poor tracking.
Eventide Quadravox? Good latency but no polyphonic tracking and awkward artefacting.

All I can think of is that Line6 are using a standard autocorrelation pitch tracking but have fine tuned it so that it doesn't do unnecessary calculations - due to it being designed for a guitar/bass processor...

So this leads me to my question:

There are so many pedal pitch shifters that work under these conditions - why can't I find any plugin versions that work as well as Helix? I don't really want to have to buy a 2 whammy DTs for my band just to replicate what I do with helix.

Anyone here having any insight?

[jinotsuh]

Have you checked out if any of the Kuassa stuff suits your needs? Theu have a sale going until the 30th I believe.

https://www.kuassa.com/

and Coming Soon

[zerocrossing]

I recently did a guitar amp shoot out of a lot of the commercial and free plugins, and I did fine Line 6’s Helix Native to be one of the best. I did not experience any of what you’re talking about, though. I didn’t outright buy it, because there was a deal where you could get it for free if you bought one of their boxes, so I picked up a HX Stomp XL, in case I ever feel the need to leave my hidey hole.

I’m not a big pitch shifter guy, at least not these days. I used to be, though. Those days I was super effects guy, but as I got deeper into synthesis I found myself gravitating to more basic guitar sounds because synthesis is just so much better at getting that kind of sound, at least for me. You could try Audio Damage’s Discord. It’s free now. I had some issues with it clipping internally, so I returned it (back when there was no demo), but I tried it now that it was free and it seems like they maybe fixed that issue. Anyway, free, so nothing to lose. I also used to use Blackbird, a Reaktor ensemble. Also free if you own Reaktor.

https://www.native-instruments.com/en/r ... show/4253/

But I’d push hard on Line 6 to fix their bugs. Are you on a Mac? It seems super solid on my PC running Windows 10, and trust me, I beat on it with great vigor. I’ve yet to have a single issue with it. The only actual issue I have with them is that the Stomp is cheaply made and suffers from USB ground loop problems if I don’t put a hum eliminator after it.

[NAD]

Have you tried Pitchometry by Aegean Music?

[someone89a]

Have you checked out if any of the Kuassa stuff suits your needs? Theu have a sale going until the 30th I believe.

https://www.kuassa.com/

and Coming Soon

Ooh now this is truly interesting! Still not the same calibre as Helix but it's by far the closest I've seen. How does the entire Kuassa suite work/sound?

I recently did a guitar amp shoot out of a lot of the commercial and free plugins, and I did fine Line 6’s Helix Native to be one of the best. I did not experience any of what you’re talking about, though. I didn’t outright buy it, because there was a deal where you could get it for free if you bought one of their boxes, so I picked up a HX Stomp XL, in case I ever feel the need to leave my hidey hole.

I’m not a big pitch shifter guy, at least not these days. I used to be, though. Those days I was super effects guy, but as I got deeper into synthesis I found myself gravitating to more basic guitar sounds because synthesis is just so much better at getting that kind of sound, at least for me. You could try Audio Damage’s Discord. It’s free now. I had some issues with it clipping internally, so I returned it (back when there was no demo), but I tried it now that it was free and it seems like they maybe fixed that issue. Anyway, free, so nothing to lose. I also used to use Blackbird, a Reaktor ensemble. Also free if you own Reaktor.

<a href="https://www.native-instruments.com/en/r ... /show/4253" class="skimlinks-unlinked" data-skimwords-word="https%3A%2F%2Fwww.native-instruments.com%2Fen%2Freaktor-community%2Freaktor-user-library%2Fentry%2Fshow%2F4253" data-skim-creative="500005" title="" style="">https://www.native-instruments.com/en/r ... /4253</a>/

But I’d push hard on Line 6 to fix their bugs. Are you on a Mac? It seems super solid on my PC running Windows 10, and trust me, I beat on it with great vigor. I’ve yet to have a single issue with it. The only actual issue I have with them is that the Stomp is cheaply made and suffers from USB ground loop problems if I don’t put a hum eliminator after it.

Ooh great pointers thank you! Yeh I seem to be alone with my issues with Helix. Their support is useless however, and their community completely just ignored me and said "nope its not Helix its you" - which felt kind of rude.
I really want it to work solidly but my problems are so many and overwhelming that I struggle to open enough support tickets for each one.
How do you use Helix? What DAW, audio interface, etc - live or studio or both? With automations etc? I want to find out how others who don't have so many issues with it use it. It's so good I'm going to be hard pressed to change to a different software.

[jinotsuh]

and Coming Soon

It has arrived, check it out !!!

https://www.kuassa.com/products/efektor ... t-harmony/

[jinotsuh]

Ooh now this is truly interesting! Still not the same calibre as Helix but it's by far the closest I've seen. How does the entire Kuassa suite work/sound?

It is excellent, amps, especially the latter stuff, Kuassa is very highly regarded. But then it's really up to the individual, give some stuff a whirl while everything is on sale.

[zerocrossing]

and Coming Soon

It has arrived, check it out !!!

https://www.kuassa.com/products/efektor ... t-harmony/

It’s really good, imo. Better than the one in Helix.

[zerocrossing]

Have you checked out if any of the Kuassa stuff suits your needs? Theu have a sale going until the 30th I believe.

https://www.kuassa.com/

and Coming Soon

Ooh now this is truly interesting! Still not the same calibre as Helix but it's by far the closest I've seen. How does the entire Kuassa suite work/sound?

I recently did a guitar amp shoot out of a lot of the commercial and free plugins, and I did fine Line 6’s Helix Native to be one of the best. I did not experience any of what you’re talking about, though. I didn’t outright buy it, because there was a deal where you could get it for free if you bought one of their boxes, so I picked up a HX Stomp XL, in case I ever feel the need to leave my hidey hole.

I’m not a big pitch shifter guy, at least not these days. I used to be, though. Those days I was super effects guy, but as I got deeper into synthesis I found myself gravitating to more basic guitar sounds because synthesis is just so much better at getting that kind of sound, at least for me. You could try Audio Damage’s Discord. It’s free now. I had some issues with it clipping internally, so I returned it (back when there was no demo), but I tried it now that it was free and it seems like they maybe fixed that issue. Anyway, free, so nothing to lose. I also used to use Blackbird, a Reaktor ensemble. Also free if you own Reaktor.

<a href="https://www.native-instruments.com/en/r ... /show/4253" class="skimlinks-unlinked" data-skimwords-word="https%3A%2F%2Fwww.native-instruments.com%2Fen%2Freaktor-community%2Freaktor-user-library%2Fentry%2Fshow%2F4253" data-skim-creative="500005" title="" style="">https://www.native-instruments.com/en/r ... /4253</a>/

But I’d push hard on Line 6 to fix their bugs. Are you on a Mac? It seems super solid on my PC running Windows 10, and trust me, I beat on it with great vigor. I’ve yet to have a single issue with it. The only actual issue I have with them is that the Stomp is cheaply made and suffers from USB ground loop problems if I don’t put a hum eliminator after it.

Ooh great pointers thank you! Yeh I seem to be alone with my issues with Helix. Their support is useless however, and their community completely just ignored me and said "nope its not Helix its you" - which felt kind of rude.
I really want it to work solidly but my problems are so many and overwhelming that I struggle to open enough support tickets for each one.
How do you use Helix? What DAW, audio interface, etc - live or studio or both? With automations etc? I want to find out how others who don't have so many issues with it use it. It's so good I'm going to be hard pressed to change to a different software.

Windows 10 on a custom build PC, nothing too fancy. One of the best Intel CPUs at the time, but that was a few years ago. 32 gigabytes of RAM. A 4 terabyte SSD and a 4 terabyte disk drive. Solid. I’m running it in Bitwig. No automation , so far, but I do use a Behringer FCB1010 for its pedals.

[enroe]

...

So this leads me to my question:

There are so many pedal pitch shifters that work under these conditions - why can't I find any plugin versions that work as well as Helix? I don't really want to have to buy a 2 whammy DTs for my band just to replicate what I do with helix.

Anyone here having any insight?

Hello "Someone"!

my insider tip is a discovery of a pitch shifter, a few years old, but which gave me the best
result in certain situations. It's an Australian plugin - here: Click me.

Don't be alarmed: The admin of this site has a special artistic taste for site backgrounds.
You would have to scroll down there to "Shiftah".

Good luck - maybe with the Shiftah.

[Uncle E]

Still not the same calibre as Helix but it's by far the closest I've seen.

Give it a try with it before your amp plugin. This might give you results more similar to what you got with Helix. Kuassa made the demo video the Tom Morello way, with amp before the pitch shifting, and I believe Helix has pitch shifting before the amp (or at least before the cabinet simulation).

[someone89a]

Windows 10 on a custom build PC, nothing too fancy. One of the best Intel CPUs at the time, but that was a few years ago. 32 gigabytes of RAM. A 4 terabyte SSD and a 4 terabyte disk drive. Solid. I’m running it in Bitwig. No automation , so far, but I do use a Behringer FCB1010 for its pedals.

Oh wow and you have no issues? Damn… I’m on windows (FL for production) and I get lots of crashes and lagginess
I use Bitwig on Mac for live shows with a midi foot pedal (nektar pacer) and I’ve turned up to gigs before and none of my mappings work in helix. They work everywhere else just not helix… I have to restart. Same thing happens in Ableton Live but worse as it actually breaks the macro mappings.

[someone89a]

I tried the kuassa stuff and WOW. The new harmoniser is GREAT. Running them into MXXX for distortions and amp stuff and I’m getting some nice tones. Bit more work than the quick and easy nature of helix but I like having the tweak ability.

So whammy is sorted - harmoniser is sorted

The two last areas in my opinion are;
1. Guitar Synths
2. Drop Tuning (like line 6’s poly capo)

I have one song in our set which I drop tune a full octave and play chords - helix tracks really well - any options for this?

[xalama qo]

I'm no expert in this area, but would the Kuassa Whammo pedal be able to track full chords and pitch them down an octave?
How intricate are the chords? Power chords or more rich jazzy voicings? What tone is your guitar when you play that part, clean or distorted?
As Uncle E iirc above mentioned your results will vary greatly depending on effects order, and I'd personally put pitch shifting straight after my fundamental tone, ie. Clean/distortion, pitch shifting, modulation, delays etc, amp/cab, reverb. But I might be very old school in my approach. Dunno

[someone89a]

I'm no expert in this area, but would the Kuassa Whammo pedal be able to track full chords and pitch them down an octave?
How intricate are the chords? Power chords or more rich jazzy voicings? What tone is your guitar when you play that part, clean or distorted?
As Uncle E iirc above mentioned your results will vary greatly depending on effects order, and I'd personally put pitch shifting straight after my fundamental tone, ie. Clean/distortion, pitch shifting, modulation, delays etc, amp/cab, reverb. But I might be very old school in my approach. Dunno

It tracks well but it is based off the old whammy algorithms where it requires tracking pitching for accurate shifting - hence the classic “iron lung” artefacting.
Pitch shifters are always at the start of my chain - especially when they are mean to mimic a different tuning - I’ll sometimes place them after certain fuzzes if they don’t hide the fundamental too much.

The part specifically that I need to track is a tritone power chord - so possibly the worst chord to try and accurately shift hahaha