Mastering Chains 2023

[Pyramidz]

Kirchhoff, P42 Climax, SPL Pq, Kotelnikov, Spl Vitalizer, Pro L2. In order!

[PieBerger]

One thing I would recommend is keep your over-all loudness down below -12 LUFS and if not more like -16 to -14 LUFS to get the most over-all quality out of your tracks. Remember louder might be perceived as sounding better but when you AB with a less loud track you'll hear the issues.

This is heavily genre-dependent, for example -16LUFS might be good for a country mix, but it will be too quiet/weak for a neuro drum & bass track. I would recommend to analyse the loudness of some reference tracks of the same style and try to match the LUFS to those.

... and try to avoid excessive loudness, over -14 LUFS if you can. The louder you get, meaning the more you pump the gain on the limiter, more you are introducting artifacts that have a negative impact on sound quality and may even cause distortion on analogue conversion. It's safer to stick with low to moderate loudness. In otherwords, avoid the Loudness War (look it up) if possible. Just because other people are reducing the quality of their audio doesn't mean you have to.

With respect, you are wrong. The loudness wars are/were a thing and certain territories were claimed victorious by the loud side. I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that you do not listen to modern electronic music, which is fine, it's not for everyone, but it does exist and it does have its own set of standards/common practices.

It is not uncommon, nor considered bad practice or detrimental to quality of the final product, to aim for -6LUFS integrated after the final mastering process for certain genres, for example glitch hop or drum and bass (as I already mentioned). Some may argue this is extreme, but in these circles, with producers making the most of modern tools and production techniques, it's pretty normal actually. The fact you mention the final limiter pumping when pushed too hard, is evidence that you are unaware of said modern tools/techniques employed to achieve loud final masters with minimal-to-zero artifacts. This isn't meant to be a shaming exercise by the way, more an exercise in broadening your horizons

I make psytrance myself and most of my stuff is mastered to -8LUFS, but my material is densely layered and this is about the limit without pushing things into distorted noise territory. Some artists are able to go louder still, -6LUFS isn't uncommon, but it's only possible to achieve these levels with more sparsely populated arrangements and well, I like busy music, so I don't want to compromise here.

You don't have to like loud music, that's a personal taste thing, but that doesn't entitle you to deny its existence and the common practices that are adhered to. Saying things like "don't go over -14LUFS" just makes you come across an ignorant, grumpy old fart (who should turn that awful racket down and get off my lawn )

[t3toooo]

but in these circles, with producers making the most of modern tools and production techniques, it's pretty normal actually. The fact you mention the final limiter pumping when pushed too hard, is evidence that you are unaware of said modern tools/techniques employed to achieve loud final masters with minimal-to-zero artifacts. This isn't meant to be a shaming exercise by the way, more an exercise in broadening your horizons

Clipping Converter is one of them, a sausage you get. Honestly, I think professional Converter Clipping does not (really) sound good and ( in the end) you always perceive it as sharp and unrelaxed. I hope it will finally go away.
The loudness difference does not matter anymore on the platforms. A Morricone song does not sound lower or weaker than a hardcore Electronic Music tune on standard household loudspeakers.


The only ( last ) point that ( many ) electronic Music producer are claiming in favour to use too much loudness is that music that is a non-sausage will sound weak on a big PA. But in reality that is only because they can't handle the volume knob on a stage. That's why DJ's often only still select the hot masters and ignoring more dynamic.

The engineers should turn up the PA for compensation. The louder Music must be played lower and the lower music louder. Like on the platforms. Problem is that the engineers have no clue how to manage this.

[Frankie.T]

Looks like few folks here have no experience at all with mastering, and following wrong people on socials.

I don't wanna argue with an infinite reply-response, i don't think i can change your mind.

So my only post and suggestion here, is to take a look at the billboard and see if there is a quiet track.

Most of them bounce between -5 to -7 LUFS with just few being quiter.

These are the best artists with the best engineers in the world.

Do you think to know more than they know?

[t3toooo]

Looks like few folks here have no experience at all with mastering, and following wrong people on socials.

Do you think to know more than they know?

Do you have? Is that a troll question? Do you know more? If you do then share it or let it be.

[Frankie.T]

Looks like few folks here have no experience at all with mastering, and following wrong people on socials.

Do you think to know more than they know?

Do you have? Is that a troll question? Do you know more? If you do then share it or let it be.

What's the point of your questions? Are you trying to provocate me? I'm sorry but i don't care.

I just pointing out what the best engineers in the world are doing. If they do so, it's for a reason.

If anyone thinks to be better than multi platinum engineers, it's not my problem.

[t3toooo]

If you don't care and still trolling around then it might be time to report you.

[PieBerger]

If you don't care and still trolling around then it might be time to report you.

It's not trolling, it's matter of fact. Modern music is mixed and mastered loud by the best engineers in the world, if you want to go against the grain that is OK, but you cannot call someone a troll for pointing out what is clear, objective fact on the matter.

If it's a toss up between what some rando on a forum thinks is best vs what critically acclaimed professional mix/mastering engineers think is best, the latter is going to win, hands down every time, especially in the absence of convincing evidence as to why all said engineers are wrong.

You don't have to agree that louder is better, but loud is the accepted norm and it is mixing and mastering engineers jobs to produce an end product that is compliant with respect to current norms.

[PieBerger]

The engineers should turn up the PA for compensation. The louder Music must be played lower and the lower music louder. Like on the platforms. Problem is that the engineers have no clue how to manage this.

I'm not going to rely on whether or not an engineer can do their job properly, to make sure my tracks hit as hard as they can on the dancefloor, that's assuming there is even an engineer there at all; not usually the case at smaller club events. With this in mind, the safest option is a loud master, not excessively loud like -2LUFS or anything crazy like that, but something like -8 or -10LUFS is quite reasonable and has been the norm for some time now. -14LUFS is simply not appropriate for modern dance music, you will convince absolutely zero people who write/release/DJ it otherwise. It doesn't mean it's not a good target for other genres; I certainly wouldn't expect a typical orchestral piece to be much louder, but claiming it to be some kind of universal target, in spite of all of the evidence to the contrary, is a hard no. Maintaining such a position is willful ignorance at this point.

[DCrown]

Rarely Softube Tape
Fabfilter ProQ or Arturia Eq Sitral 295
TDR Kotelnikov
Waves WLM Plus (Analyzer)

[t3toooo]

If you don't care and still trolling around then it might be time to report you.

It's not trolling, it's matter of fact. Modern music is mixed and mastered loud by the best engineers in the world, if you want to go against the grain that is OK, but you cannot call someone a troll for pointing out what is clear, objective fact on the matter.

If it's a toss up between what some rando on a forum thinks is best vs what critically acclaimed professional mix/mastering engineers think is best, the latter is going to win, hands down every time, especially in the absence of convincing evidence as to why all said engineers are wrong.

You don't have to agree that louder is better, but loud is the accepted norm and it is mixing and mastering engineers jobs to produce an end product that is compliant with respect to current norms.

The misunderstanding here is. It can't be louder ( than 0 ), and I explained why.
The reason for the the loudness before the platforms introduced the automatic leveling was the professionell converter clipping method and nothing else.
Some years ago, some Music WAS much louder and therefore it might sounded better because of this. Not anymore.

Luckily, Converter Clipping is even questioned by established engineers. Many of them are against it. Read up about it before telling me what is world class. That is a subjective opinion
( that I do respect ) .

It's only a matter of time that you can finally completely ignore the so called louder music. That is only in your mind and has nothing to do with sound quality or "world class"

Also, I have no idea who is sitting behind a username. That's why it is pure trolling to question forum users as unqualified and uneducated.


Loudness differences might be still propagated by a specific circle of producers and engineers.
If sit in front of YouTube, luckily I don't have to level the volume knob anymore. So what m'I talking about? A ghost?

[t3toooo]

The engineers should turn up the PA for compensation. The louder Music must be played lower and the lower music louder. Like on the platforms. Problem is that the engineers have no clue how to manage this.

I'm not going to rely on whether or not an engineer can do their job properly, to make sure my tracks hit as hard as they can on the dancefloor, that's assuming there is even an engineer there at all; not usually the case at smaller club events. With this in mind, the safest option is a loud master, not excessively loud like -2LUFS or anything crazy like that, but something like -8 or -10LUFS is quite reasonable and has been the norm for some time now. -14LUFS is simply not appropriate for modern dance music, you will convince absolutely zero people who write/release/DJ it otherwise. It doesn't mean it's not a good target for other genres; I certainly wouldn't expect a typical orchestral piece to be much louder, but claiming it to be some kind of universal target, in spite of all of the evidence to the contrary, is a hard no. Maintaining such a position is willful ignorance at this point.

If you like pumping Compressors and Limiters, clean or noisy, if it fits your taste and you like it then everything is possible. If you use too much dynamic or the master is too low then it needs to be pushed up. Nothing to do with LUFS but with musicality and taste.
Otherwise please do not make the mistake to convince me or others that they don't know about electronic music.


LUFS measurement was only invented and applied to handle the perceived loudness on platforms and to minimise the constant annoying volume adjustment by the user.
Finally I don't have to fiddle with the Volume-Control all the time.


The argument music will be rejected to be played because of LUFS is hilarious.

[Frankie.T]

Read up about it before telling me what is world class. That is a subjective opinion

That's the point, what i say isn't subjective. Are just facts.

That's an important chart
https://www.billboard.com/charts/billboard-200/

Let's just take a quick look at the first 4 positions

1) Speak Now (Taylor's Version) is -5LUFS
https://tunebat.com/Info/I-Can-See-You- ... O9NBy0ku4v

2) One Think At A Time is -5LUFS
https://tunebat.com/Info/One-Thing-At-A ... RN64jXzIxo

3) Genesis (it's an album, i just searched for the most played song inside this album on Spotify and it's PRC) -6LUFS
https://tunebat.com/Info/PRC-Peso-Pluma ... npY14rsTR2

4) Midnights from Taylor Swift, another album it's between -7 to -12
and it's a soft kind of music!
Anti-hero (again the most played on Spotify) is -7
https://tunebat.com/Info/Midnight-Rain- ... GsjB49SxLl

And this is POP music, shoudn't even needs to be loud, expecially some vibey music like Swift's songs, but it is!

If you keep searching you find close to none -14LUFS music in the top charts, even if the song, like the quieter one from Swift is pretty empty.

I don't understand how can you call chart analysis subjective. That's what it is, not mine or your opinion.

We can discuss if we like it or not, we can talk about how saturation, compression, clipping and limiting affect music. We can say what we like and dislike. How music could sound different with different way to master or mix it.

We can politely discuss on everythings, without calling troll who is saying something different from you.

But talking as the loudness war is over, it's just like blindly say yours is "the real religion" and that's pointless.
If pop music, even soft music is so loud, it just means loudness war it's more alive than ever.

You may like it or not, that's personal. But it's what it is

If you want to keep this discussion constructive, feel free to say your opinion that i totally respect.
But if you want to talk about what happens in the real world, where the charts and money are, and more importantly what most people is listening, let's take a look at facts.

I just picked the most famous chart and watched the first positions, i cannot be more objective than that.

[vurt]

bones has been on a chart with taylor swift. this is a true fact.

[PieBerger]

bones has been on a chart with taylor swift. this is a true fact.

and he is -2LUFS personified, on principle, so